Courts discussion (Split from Book T and the Astrological Signs)

To take it a step further... (if this is too early to toss in let me know)

The Cardinal signs are ruled by the Queens, the Fixed signs ruled by the Princes , and the Mutable signs ruled by the (Kings/Thoth-Knights)... These assignments fit with the character of these courts... As a simple mnemonic:

Cardinals/Queens (on thrones) express Awarenessof the element.
Fixed/Princes (on chariots) represent the Action or Aggression of the element.
Mutable/Kings (on horses) express Accomplishment of the element.

And each of these courts express in large part the character of the 3 decans ruled. For people who have a hard time reading the courts, looking at the 3 cards ruled by the court can give a great astrological handle.

And the Princesses are the "Thrones of the Aces"... a topic unto itself which we can save for a later day.

Scion said:

the Fixed signs ruled by the (Kings/Thoth-Knights), and the Mutable signs ruled by the Princes...

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Uh oh! I'm gonna open a whole nother bucket of worms here, that might be better in another thread, but shouldn't we be saying Fixed Sign = Princes or Kings on THRONES, Mutable = Knight or King on HORSE?

Uh Oh!

Why queen = cardinal and Knight/king = Fixed?

Scion said:

Briefly, Cardinal Signs represent the start of the Element, they are rapid and short lived energy. Fixed signs are the full strength of the Element, they are as the name Fixed suggests, more stable and long lasting energy.

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I would have thought the knights (guys on horses in Thoth, fire thingy) are more suited to "rapid and short lived energy"
And the queens are more suited to "more stable and long lasting energy"

And yes, I think we need to sort out who is who in the courts at some point.

Similia said:

but shouldn't we be saying Fixed Sign = Princes or Kings on THRONES, Mutable = Knight or King on HORSE?

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Scion said:

The Cardinal signs are ruled by the Queens, the Fixed signs ruled by the (Kings/Thoth-Knights), and the Mutable signs ruled by the Princes

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Cos both of your statements there contradict each other.

Lillie said:

Why queen = cardinal and Knight/king = Fixed?

I would have thought the knights (guys on horses in Thoth, fire thingy) are more suited to "rapid and short lived energy"

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I think because the blokes on horses in the Thoth are Kings and so they would be the most powerful therefore Fixed. Not sure..

Love FLuff
xx

Similia, thank you for a very clear explanation of everything so far! It makes a lot of sense.

So there are three cards in each of twelve signs and twelve cards in each of three modes.

Lillie said:

Why queen = cardinal and Knight/king = Fixed?

I would have thought the knights (guys on horses in Thoth, fire thingy) are more suited to "rapid and short lived energy"
And the queens are more suited to "more stable and long lasting energy"

And yes, I think we need to sort out who is who in the courts at some point.

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I kind of thought the same. In book T it says that:

The Queens represent 'a force steady and unshaken, but not rapid, though enduring'. That sounds a lot like fixed.

Kings or Figures mounted on steeds are a 'force swift and violent in its action, but whose effect soon passes away'. I would assume that would be the Thoth Knights and it doesn't sound to fit the fixed description. That would be cardinal?

The effect of Princes is 'at once rapid (though not so swift as that of the Queen) and enduring. [...] Yet is his power vain unless set in Motion by his Father and Mother. So that would be mutable in my head. Not that I know that much about 'modes'. It would make it less confusing if we could establish who is who.

But then it goes on to say that Courts do their own thing 'in between the signs'. So... ?

Errr, I hope it's ok if I join in

Lillie said:

And yes, I think we need to sort out who is who in the courts at some point....Cos both of your statements there contradict each other.

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Y its likely Scion and I are referring to different things. There are a several ways to line the Courts up with the decans and zodiac signs. There is a thread I asked about part of Crowley's book here that shows two ways, but they aren't the only ways.

I've always assumed that the blokes on horses (if called King or Knight or whatever) "ruled" the Mutable minors, as they are attributed commonly to the first two decans (first 2/3rds) of the mutable sign and the last decan (1/3rd) of the preceeding sign. E.g. the Knight of Wands get mostlly Sagittarius which is Mutable fire, but also a little bit of Scorpio, Fixed Water, which is the preceeding sign.

Most GD authors will agree on that, though some line the RWS style courts up differently than others which changes things. Then there are also other considerations from the qabalah etc. so we're probably better to get into that a bit later on. The courts are much less simple astrologically than the minors and majors.

Storm82 said:

2,3,4 of Wands. Aries (Fire in the fire´s way, progressive)
5,6,7 of Wands. Leo (Fire in water´s way, regressive)
8,9,10 of Wands. Sagittarius (Fire in air´s way, varied)

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This is another way to look at it, similar to what is discussed by Crowley in the thread I linked to above with the Courts.

I should say the information I gave on what Cardinal means, Mutable means etc. comes from astrology and not a tarot reference. Those "meanings" will change on the actualy Court Cards, as the courts are composed of many different pieces and not just those one things.

Hopefully Scion will be along shortly, so we hear some more about the system he referenced. I might leave the topic alone for now, as I think I'm muddying up the water a bit

elvenstar said:

I kind of thought the same. In book T it says that:

The Queens represent 'a force steady and unshaken, but not rapid, though enduring'. That sounds a lot like fixed.

Kings or Figures mounted on steeds are a 'force swift and violent in its action, but whose effect soon passes away'. I would assume that would be the Thoth Knights and it doesn't sound to fit the fixed description. That would be cardinal?

The effect of Princes is 'at once rapid (though not so swift as that of the Queen) and enduring. [...] Yet is his power vain unless set in Motion by his Father and Mother. So that would be mutable in my head. Not that I know that much about 'modes'. It would make it less confusing if we could establish who is who.

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I am wondering if I have a incomplete Book T download because I can't find this. Is there a page number, or some other reference. Maybe it glitched when I printed it out.
Thanks Elvenstar,
AW

Near the beginning, after the Aces, under 'the sixteen, or royal cards'.

elvenstar said:

Near the beginning, after the Aces, under 'the sixteen, or royal cards'.

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Ahhh. Thanks. You made it much more neat and compact.