The Empresses Bag? (Noblet)

prudence

I am wondering, does another thread need to be started if we wish to discuss the Empress' regard? (I am fascinated by the fact that she is looking straight at me...) This card and her gaze are what made me fall head over heels for this deck...
 

Moonbow

Moderator Note

I think a new thread about the Empress' gaze would be an excellent idea Pru, since this one is to focus on her grain bag, and the scallop.
 

kwaw

Venus 'Baptismal' Shell

kwaw said:
baptismFrancesco.jpg

We might also follow as if by a chain of associations with the venus 'baptismal shell', John the Baptist with his namesake and Christ's 'beloved' the apostle St. John, who through his association with Aquarius like John the Baptist is also a 'water-bearer'.

AquariusShell.jpg


On connection between St. John, Ganymede, Aquarius see the posts on the Star in Cary Yale thread, which start at about p.9 ~

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=62044&page=9&pp=10&highlight=ganymede

Kwaw
 

mac22

Rosanne said:
Le Pendu, there is a proverb...He that nothing questions, nothing Learns
I think Tarot is a Trope of Monkeys, a Fluke of Flamigos, a Fleet of Fancies, a Syllabub of Symbols, but most of all an Artifact of Artifice. The craftsman who devised it knew, something other (and absolutely more) than woodblock printing. Might is only May and that is a month I am told. The scallop on the throne is a peg I can hang my hat on, and it make sense. ~Rosanne


So many good things here.....:)

mac22
 

kwaw

The Veils of Divine and Human Love:

“Therefore, let there be two Venuses in the World Soul, the first heavenly and second vulgar. Let both have love: the heavenly for contemplating divine Beauty, the vulgar for procreating the same in the Matter of the World. For such beauty as the former sees, the latter wishes to pass on as well as it can to the machine of the World."

It has occurred to many that the divine lady of the world card may be a representation of the Anima Mundi (World Soul).

Perhaps we may see the penis in the hand of the Bateleur as also a reference to Abelard (castrated for his affair with Eloise) who interpreted Plato's concept of the anima mundi as an involucrum*. That is a divine, philosophical or natural truth veiled beneath an integumentum.*

He likened the world soul with the holy spirit, which he defined as the personified love of god for creation (some would say that like William of Conches he 'identified' rather than 'likened' the Anima Mundi with the Holy Spirit, but he was careful to distinguish between likeness and identification in awareness of the subtle distinction in which identification could be construed as heretical, as indeed William of Conches was charged).

For Abelard the Anima Mundi represented love (caritas) as the highest good and the greatest virtue; by exercise of which even those who have never received Christian instruction or sacraments, including pagans, could find salvation.

Perhaps between our iugler poet and the divine lady, the way of love is watermarked by veiled references...

Kwaw

*Integumentum / Involucrum (veiled, wrapped, hidden) :

In general terms a pagan fable, viewed as a fabulous story that sleeves truth in a poetic, picturesque fictional form. Basically allegorical interpretation applied to pagan myth, poetry and philosophy to unwrap the truth veiled (involucrum) beneath the 'pagan lies'.

The difference between allegory and integumentum / involucrum being that the terms integumentum / involucrum were applied to pagan 'fiction', allegory to scriptural 'history' and 'truth'. Concepts of integumentum and involucrum as they developed at the School of Chartres allowed for a study of pagan poetry and philosophy in terms acceptable to a Christian audience.

The concepts were then also used to defend and make acceptable not only the pagan fables of the past but the writing of secular poetry and fables in the present, that may (but not neccesarily) include reference to pagan figures and concepts and even bawdy and rude references and tales, such as in for example the Romance of the Rose, within which the author would veil a hidden truth or philosophy; the unveiling or discovery of which, as with a puzzle, added to the readers pleasure and delight.

Abelard and some others made a distinction between integumentum and involucrum; more commonly the terms came to be used as synonyms. Essential to integumentum and involucrum was the concept of multi-valent symbolism; one thing could represent or reference many things or ideas; and conversely that many things could represent one thing. As a popular mode of poets and artists from the 12th century on the concept of integumentum, involucrum needs to be understood when reading / viewing their works.
 

Rosanne

Your explanation above is very important Kwaw. For example maybe the Waite/Colman or RWS seems to be an allegory in the minds of the creators and maybe decks like Druidcraft are Pagan fables which people mistake for allegory. The Marseille type decks seem to be the integumentum / involucrum you speak of which has been allegorically layered over. It is the base layer these threads are all about, I guess. It is important to be able to make the distinction when looking at symbols and images as you said. I appreciate the clear explanation. ~Rosanne
 

mac22

kwaw said:
*Integumentum / Involucrum (veiled, wrapped, hidden) :

In general terms a pagan fable, viewed as a fabulous story that sleeves truth in a poetic, picturesque fictional form. Basically allegorical interpretation applied to pagan myth, poetry and philosophy to unwrap the truth veiled (involucrum) beneath the 'pagan lies'.

The difference between allegory and integumentum / involucrum being that the terms integumentum / involucrum were applied to pagan 'fiction', allegory to scriptural 'history' and 'truth'. Concepts of integumentum and involucrum as they developed at the School of Chartres allowed for a study of pagan poetry and philosophy in terms acceptable to a Christian audience.

The concepts were then also used to defend and make acceptable not only the pagan fables of the past but the writing of secular poetry and fables in the present, that may (but not neccesarily) include reference to pagan figures and concepts and even bawdy and rude references and tales, such as in for example the Romance of the Rose, within which the author would veil a hidden truth or philosophy; the unveiling or discovery of which, as with a puzzle, added to the readers pleasure and delight.

Abelard and some others made a distinction between integumentum and involucrum; more commonly the terms came to be used as synonyms. Essential to integumentum and involucrum was the concept of multi-valent symbolism; one thing could represent or reference many things or ideas; and conversely that many things could represent one thing. As a popular mode of poets and artists from the 12th century on the concept of integumentum, involucrum needs to be understood when reading / viewing their works.

Thanks for the concise clear explanation. I'm sure finding multi-valent symbolism true in the Noblet deck.

Mac22
 

Debra

Asymmetrical Coat Of Arms

The question was raised: Why is the coat of arms held by the Empress asymmetrical? Some thought it might indicate that the edge of the coat of arms was obscured by her gown. I just saw this in a gallery. It's from 1503 (see attached). I suspect it's only one of many such asymmetrical coats of arms. Perhaps that might affect thinking about her dress.

Is this the right thread?

http://www.pasqualeart.com/durer/durer51019.html
 

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kwaw

The shape of the shield could depend upon the type of weapons the shield would be used in conjuntion with, asymmetrical types such as the targone and targe may have a slot on one side for example in which to rest a jousting lance.

For example see here:

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/shield.htm

"Tournament Shield (Targe) [German] (25.26.1)". In Timeline of Art History. New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2000–. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/rarm/hod_25.26.1.htm (October 2006)

http://www.geocities.com/armoria/shield.html

Tournament shields such as the targe or targone used for battle games were generally considered impractical for use in actual battle.

Some surviving examples seem to be totally impractical even in the context of tournament games (the angle or curvature of the slot for example may be such that a jousting lance would simply slip out) and appear to be purely decorative.

Kwaw
Etymology of Target=c.1400, "shield," dim. of late O.E. targe, from O.Fr. targe "light shield," from Frank. *targa "shield" (cf. O.H.G. zarga "edging, border," Ger. zarge, O.E. targe, O.N. targa "shield"), from P.Gmc. *targo "border, edge." Meaning "object to be aimed at in shooting" first recorded 1757, originally in archery. Verb meaning "to use as a target" is attested from 1837.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=target
 

DianeOD

Targe/target imagery in cards

Note: returned to edit out refs to current research topic.

The idea of the 'targe' motif - seen not only literally but as visual and linguistic puns on some cards- may possibly have begun from an original reference to the memento-token/card as resembling a Median shield, i.e. one that was small brightly-shining, and metal covered - called in Arabic a 'Tars Daylani'.

Indian and Persian cards are circular.

Tars Daylani is Referred to in the 1001 Nights, (which contains our oldest ref. to 'Kanjifah' - and there where it serves as a metaphor for the swift-moving (i.e. expressive) and radiant face of a woman.

Implication is that it also serves as a parallelism for the moon.

For the 'face-shield' which is used on some packs, see the 15thC editions of Hyginus Poeticon Astronomicon.

For those may not have had the chance to discover it, earlier references say that cards, card-sets, or card-games arrive with 'Islamic' terms associated with them e.g. naib, nayb, naibyy etc.

The 'curvy' sort of shield in the west is mainly used in monumental or iconographic heraldry, rarely seen in military use, and only indirectly linked to the jousting shield.

PS. The bag shown with the Empress is probably of the standard sort - i.e. meant to hold money, or may refer to her holding other tokens,in which case its perhaps an allusion to card-use itself. Its is not part of the original [i.e. 'archetypal'] figure.

D.