Grand Cross

Kibeth

Hi all,

The Grand Cross has fascinated me for a long time now. I don't know anyone with this in their chart yet, but I do know a forum-er with the GC if you include the Ascendant. I'd like everyone to share their ideas and will include her chart (or Himmler's) for study if we get responses.

According to Wikipedia:

In astrology, a Grand Cross is said to occur when four planets are all separated from each other by Square aspects (90 degrees apart). A Grand Cross can also be viewed as two oppositions (180 degrees apart) separated from each other by a square. In a Grand Cross, there is one planet in each astrological element (fire, earth, air and water) but all the planets are in signs of the same modality or quality.

1) Can the Grand Cross include the Ascendant, or is this strictly "planets only"?

On one hand, the Ascendant is simply a point in the sky, that if we include the Asc we should include the North Node, South Node, and everything else which makes for a complicated chart.

On the other hand the Asc is, in the view of traditional astrology, more important than the Sun itself. I'm too split on this issue.

What do you think?

2) What are traditional views of this configuration? Heroes? Villains? Heinrich Himmler has this in his chart.

Before you cry out villain! I've actually questioned his morality for a while in a history book years ago.

3) The Grand Cross is a pretty rare. Do you know anyone's charts with the GC? What was he or she (or you) like? We could study his or her chart.
 

dadsnook2000

Some small details

First of all, the Ascendant is not a point in the sky that is like other points in the sky such as the Moon's Nodes or Part of Fortune, etc. The Ascendant represents a point on the Earth where the eastern meridian (a great circle that connects the poles and passes through the Equator) intersects the zodiac plane or celestial equator which is the plane defined by the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The Lunar Nodes define the Moon's own Aries-Libra points in the Draconic zodiac relative to the Earths orbital plane. There are two very different measuring references at work here.

In my opinion, the inclusion of the Ascendant as part of a grand-cross pattern is not strictly proper. If you move to another location, then you will lose your grand cross. Anyone born at the same time as you, but in another location, will have a grand cross consisting of planets. But, if the Ascendant is used, only those having the same birth time and general location will have a grand cross that includes the Ascendant.

Plus, if you do use the Ascendant, your interpretive approach has to change relative to having a planet there instead of the Ascendant. The Ascendant has an entirely different functional expression and purpose.

The Sun and the Ascendant are not in competition with each others relative to importance. They are what they are. Either may have different or equal value in a chart, but both are different animals. THE ASCENDANT is a personal expression, contributes to ones character, defines how one might act and when they might act (by transits to it). THE SUN both integrates and vitalizes other planets it aspects and indicates our will and intensity of life. Either can playing varying roles in each of our charts, and may even contribute to the success we have in living up to our charts.

I've seen charts with grand crosses many times. In general, these people are either very driven and much involved in every aspect of their life (they must drink a lot of coffee to stay so active), or they bounce around thru life like ping-pong balls in the wind, accomplish little that takes perseverance, and may turn out to be highly frustrated and even destructive to those around them.

My opinions. Dave
 

Minderwiz

Well, allowing for points to be used I have a compound one - Moon, opposed to Saturn and square Mercury and Venus, making up three sides, the fourth corner would be the North Node. This clearly implies that the South Node adds to the complex and as Saturn is conjunct the Ascendant and the Moon conjunct the Descendant, that adds a further dimension! The orbs involved are Moon, Mercury, Saturn all partile (same degree) - North Node and Ascendant 2,5 degrees, Moon and Mercury and Saturn are in an applying to the Ascendant and North/South Nodes. Saturn/Ascendant is in Fire, Moon in Air, Mercury/Venus/South Node in Water and North Node in Earth.

Now should we allow this? - one of the points of your question. The idea of the Grand Cross is a modern one. I'm guessing around the last 50/60 years at most and it seems to be the case that those who started using it saw it as planets only, no points. So on their reasoning I only have a T square (Saturn/Moon/Mercury+Venus). Incidentally my nodes are angular 10th to 4th.

My view would be that one should not use the Grand Cross (or any planetary pattern other than a stelium) in a traditional approach. So even if you think the Ascendant is more important than the Sun, you don't use it in this way. Oddly the nodes are the only points that have Exaltations and therefore carry essential dignity but I still would not want to include them either.

The key issue here comes down to does the planetary pattern add anything at all to the chart interpretation? I stress the pattern, not the planets (and points if you use them) that compose it, as these would be used anyway. I don't see any necessity for modern Astrologers to answer 'yes' to this question but obviously if you are applying traditional methods the answer must be no. A third possibility is that you take a traditional view of Astrology but are quite willing to introduce methods that work within that approach. For example I've tried using precessed Solar Returns and still cast them along with Tropical Returns. In that case you might be willing to answer 'yes' but you should be sure that what information the patterns reveal is such that it cannot be observed by other means.

PS If you disagree my SS friends will be round to see you soon ;-)
 

Minderwiz

I didn't really go into your point on the relative importance of Ascendant and Sun but I don't disagree with anything Dave says. Both He and I don't like the 'Sun sign' approach that often pervades Astrology and detracts from a thorough understanding of the fundamentals.

The Ascendant, its sign and ruler in the tradition signifies you - your body, mind and spirit (though the latter two can be delineated in more detail from Mercury and the Moon).

The Sun says more about your manners - the way you go about your life, especially in relation to your career, honours and social position and your treatment of others in relation to those but the Sun is NOT you.

I'd add a rider to that, as I fully agree with Dave's point about the variety of roles it can play. My Ascendant lies in Leo, so the Sun is my Ascendant ruler - this is what a traditional Astrologer would describe as an 'accident' - that is the Sun is not always as a matter of its very essence, the ruler of the Ascendant. It may be in some charts. An accident is something that does not have to happen, and should not be seen in it's narrower modern meaning of something unpleasant happening which harms the body.

For others, the Sun's placement in the chart and the House with Leo on the cusp will yield important information, so will it's aspects (if any) and the relationship of Moon and other planets in terms of their cycles relative to the Sun.

Returning to the Grand Cross (and other patterns) - I really don't understand how a pattern can have meaning divorced from the planets that comprise it. Allowing the North Node for argument's sake would Dave say that I would exhibit exactly the same behaviour if the three planets were, Mars, Pluto and Jupiter (same signs, same degrees and same houses)?
 

Kibeth

A chance to dissect the Minderwiz's birth chart? I'm up for it!
Unfortunately we're missing the birthtime. If you're a Libra-Leo-rising or Scorpio-Leo-rising, you should be born anytime between midnight to the wee hours.

dadsnook2000 said:
I've seen charts with grand crosses many times. In general, these people are either very driven and much involved in every aspect of their life (they must drink a lot of coffee to stay so active), or they bounce around thru life like ping-pong balls in the wind, accomplish little that takes perseverance, and may turn out to be highly frustrated and even destructive to those around them.

What kind of GCs do these people have? There are three kinds you know? The Mutable, Fixed and Cardinal. It's certainly news to me the GC is only a modern concept possibly a mere 50 years old. I seriously doubt the ancients could have let such an obvious pattern in the stars miss them, what with their advanced geometrical knowledge and the fact they didn't miss the Northern Cross.

Lets have Minderwiz provide his chart. Or anyone with this aspect volunteer.
 

Minderwiz

Kibeth said:
It's certainly news to me the GC is only a modern concept possibly a mere 50 years old. I seriously doubt the ancients could have let such an obvious pattern in the stars miss them, what with their advanced geometrical knowledge and the fact they didn't miss the Northern Cross. aspect volunteer.

Well the Northern Cross is not a planetary pattern it's an asterism. Moreover it doesn't have any Astrological significance as such (as opposed to the individual stars comprising it) that I've come across. Just because it's up there doesn't mean you have to use it :)

Now I'd guess that it's not easy to get a Grand Cross using the traditional planets - Sun, Mercury and Venus can never achieve a square aspect between them So we have Moon, Mars Jupiter and Saturn plus one of the other 3 that could form such a pattern. The modern Astrologer has two more planets plus the dwarves, and many are willing to include asteroids and Kuiper Belt objects. Hence Dave's comment about how common they are.
 

VenusRising

could someone commment on Grand Cross composites. I cannot seem to find any information on internet about grand cross composites. but i do told that they are most stressful relationships.
 

dadsnook2000

Grand Cross patterns

One of the more newsworthy people that we currently hear about is the Australian born Julian Assange, founder of Wikileak and perpetrator of massive documentation files of the US government and other nations.

His Grand Cross pattern is made up of Paran Squares. These are planets at the angles of the natal chart in which the angles are not themselves square to each other. These types of squares are often far more powerful than regular squares which are not at angles.

In Julian Assanges case, the MC is at 26 Leo, the IC at 26 Aquarius. The Ascendant is at 8 Sag, the Descendant at 8 Gemini. Near these angles we find Mercury at 25 Leo, Mars at 21 Aquarius, Neptune at 0 Sag. and Saturn at 3 Gemini.

As always, before we dissect any planetary pattern in a chart we FIRST look at the Sun, Moon, Asc. and MC individually and relative to each other.

** SUN is at 29 Cancer, at the cusp of the 9th house, and broadly conjunct the MOON at 8 Leo in the 9th. The Sun position would suggest one who is quite quite outward in nature and appreciative of candidness and truth in others. MOON in the 9th suggests that you impress others with your openness and truthfulness. (Notice the polarity outward and inward with the Sun and Moon in this position) In terms of their phase relationship, the Moon has a new-moon phase relationship with the Sun -- Assange will be spontaneous, seeking attention, liking the limelight, a showman at heart.

The MC has Mercury within a degree. Communication, his views on the world and its communications will be involved in his goals and personal direction. With Mars at the IC, in opposition, he would find antagonists everywhere to argue with.

Neptune, just above the Asc., is opposite Saturn, just below the Descendant. Neptune will suggest a visionary, a dreamer with his own ideas about about value of his private nature (12th house) and will have to play out against Saturn in the 6th/7th -- the limitations of others and how they disappoint him. This Neptune-opp-Saturn can be a bridge builder pattern. Here he uses it in a somewhat negative way to serve his personal views, he applies his vision on others to limit their options and to serve his own.

We can take the more "negative" view of these patterns because 1) they are squares and they are hard to assimilate, 2) there are four squares and two oppositions in this whole pattern (not counting the Asc and MC points), 3) the Mercury-versus-Mars pattern suggest strife and arguments, and 4) the Saturn-versus-Neptune pattern has to deal with "reality versus illusion." My mentor, Robert Pelletier (Planets in Houses, Planets in Aspect) used to say that Saturn was the illusion of reality and that Neptune was the reality of illusion. They are a tough pair to reconcile for many people. I know because I have this pattern in my chart.

With all of that said and done, we can look at the squares. Neptune square Mercury can point to a struggle to sort out ideas and what words mean. Neptune square Mars can avoid physical fights and choose fights within the mind. Saturn square Mercury can cause some trouble in organizing plans and following a strategy. Saturn square Mars is a sort of "stop versus go" situation--when do you go, when do you stop, why would you do either?

All that said, you just put it all together. He acts to gain attention, has an underdog view of life, likes to argue or think about dislikes associated with others but doesn't want to directly fight anyone. He has both a vision as well as an unclear strategy about achieving his vision, so he starts things off and then sees what happens. Persistence is not an up-front quality of his, as he often stops one project and starts another. He leaves a lot undone, and depends upon others to follow up on what he started.

If you want, you can add in the sign meanings (which I don't bother with much). The Sag Ascendant will lend him a brusqueness and self-driven view of what direction one should head in. Doing, going, seeing, talking is the only way to live. The Leo MC will give him a form of confident attitude about his goals on the outside. This will be countered by the Mercury-Mars pair that counters the outer confidence. He may be said to have a "sneaky" approach to how he get his goals fulfilled.

So, that is one way to look at a Grand Cross pattern. Others may approach it in other ways. As anyone can see, the complexities are such that it takes awhile to determine just how the patterns may express themselves. The choice of taking the negative side of Saturn-Neptune was determined by the easier-to-understand Mercury-Mars pattern and the Sag-and-Leo angles. While Sag is mutable, I've found that Sag isn't flexible in many ways. Leo is Leo, just salute and say "yes." Of, course, Mars in Aquarius is easy to sterotype --- fight for others. And Saturn in Gemini is just uncomfortable with life.

So, what do you think? Dave
 

Minderwiz

Dave, I've not got Assange's natal details so I'll confine my comments to your approach to the analysis.

Firstly, your use of parans is interesting in this context - I suppose it begs the question as to whether it can still be a Grand Cross with paran squares used but these aspects in themselves are a perfectly legitimate part of the chart analysis and can indeed yield useful information.

Secondly, Yes, we would need to look at other factors first - in my case an assessment of temperament and manners but these use Ascendant, Moon and Sun, so I'm right there with you on this point.

I'll leave aside the use of Neptune - you use it and it's perfectly legitimate to do so, I don't use it and that's also legitimate - but your approach to the analysis is here is probably similar to what I would do - I would probably be looking at specific areas of life and woud look at the aspects themselves, (in pairs first of all) in terms of how they colour that area. I don't take a psychological view, but I would then go on to consider as and when necessary the interplay of those pairs, as of course life is not compartmentalised and indeed the chart shows the interconnections through aspects between the houses - much more clearly seen if you use whole sign houses.

What I would not do, is consider the pattern as such, divorced from the planets - thus I would not be in the slightest bit interested in whether the pattern was in Cardinal, Fixed or Mutable signs. I would be interested in whether the aspects came from Angular, Succeedent or Cadent Houses.

From my reading of your analysis, you too have not treated the pattern as an entity separate from the planets, so we again would seem to be similar in that respect, if not in the interpretation of the aspects themselves.

Your comments on the possible use of signs, reflect the modern usage and I know (because you reaffirmed it) that you have grave misgivings over sign meanings - you have included them here for those that still use them - and many do.

I too have grave misgivings about the modern meanings - and I've written about that elsewhere. I would simply point out here that:

Sagittarius is an Autumnal sign - and one where we are changing into Winter. There will be a Melancholy streak (Autumn is 'earthy') which accounts for your perceived lack of flexibility - we also forget that Jupiter's sign rulerships are Autumn/Winter he is not quite the sunny character that popular Astrology would have us believe - being benefic does not mean he has to be Jolly Santa all the time. What really matters though is the condition of Jupiter, any planets in the first, and aspects to the Ascendant in making a judgement about it.

Assange has a dirurnal birth, which gives Saturn rulership of the Air Triplicity (Mercury has it by night) So Saturn is a little more at home in Gemini, than a modern view would take. Not brimming with dignity but not bereft of it either.

Again the Leo MC is dependent on the Sun's condition and that is not good. We are more likely to see the arrogant, proud, disdainful, domineering expression (though OF COURSE other factor may more than counterbalance)

It appears from your description that Mercury is at or near its stationary point and will shortly be turning retrograde (I think you would have mentioned it, had it already changed direction) So a slow and ponderous Mercury is in opposition to Mars.

Thanks for your thoughts, Very interesting as always
 

Kibeth

@ Dave
Julian Assange is indeed a fascinating person. But he hasn't got a GC in his chart so maybe split a thread for him? Sorry. I'll analyze him if you like on a separate thread.

@ Minderwiz
We have the Eastern cultures like Japan and China naming Mars the "Fire Star" and Venus the "Gold Star", and they still do. The Northern Cross is composed of "stars". So they're all celestial bodies. I won't go as far as to agree with the Old View that the Sun orbits the Earth though.

If asteroids are to be included this woman's chart would have TWO Grand Crosses.
http://i55.tinypic.com/10rjsw1.jpg

@ VenusRising
What is a Grand Cross composite? Perhaps Dave or Minderwiz can point in the right direction?