Marseilles Swords

euripides

Since there isn't a suit-specific general thread, I'm starting one. There's quite a bit of discussion on the swords here

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12999

and a couple of points that I'd like to take from there and explore, but I'd like to look at them in context of the whole suit.

The Curved Swords: I'd like to suggest that these don't represent actual swords, but rather the movement of the sword through the air. I think that if the artist wanted to draw a symbolic sword, then one end would be pointed, and you could easily do so and still have a balanced design. The thick-thin-thick design suggests to me the arc of a sword-blade slashing (in the graceful curve of a rapier, not the Roman's short stabbing style).

The added sword in the odd-numbered card is stationary, in central, and drawn in detail. To me, if the swords were meant to be representational of a sword shape, then this third sword would be also drawn abstractly.

What this idea means in terms of interpretation, if it is a valid idea, is something I'll be thinking about today.

The Flower: Somebody mentioned a Lotus. Because this is a european tradition, not Buddhist, and because the shape of the flower and leaves bear very little resemblance to a lotus, I'm going to suggest an alternative: the Pomegranate. The pomegranate has long, shiny leaves very like those portrayed. The flower is long and red, like the one on the four and six.

I suggest that the flower on the Swords depicts the pomegranate from bud, to young then mature flower, to the beginning of fruit (calyx?)

A quote from this page
http://www.vohuman.org/Article/The Pomegranate Fruit.htm
struck a chord, because of the leaves dangling from the crown in the ace:

"Pomegranate is also used during the ‘navar’ ceremony whereby a young man is inducted in to Zoroastrian priesthood. A number of ‘mobeds’ meet at the house of the candidate one day before the initiation. They prepare a crown and a ‘vars’. The crown is a turban wound to fit the candidate's head. It is decorated with gold and silver chains with hanging coins and has other ornaments that make it look like a crown."

The Pomegranate would be flowering in late autumn to fruit through winter... though the arguments for elemental and seasonal attribution seem to get rather circular... what was the standard in the 1700s? ..

Anyway, a few thoughts.
 

jmd

Personally, I consider the suggestion that the depiction of the curved swords as representing movement, rather than sword, a fascinating addition to the range that has so far been suggested. I do not, however, consider it historically likely.

In both the thread linked to, and in (amongst others - but this one more clearly) 10 Swords - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver, the suggestion is that the Marseille-type decks have, on the whole, lost the image distinction between the blade tip and the hilt-and-pommel. In both a number of very early decks, but also in pre-tarot Mamluk decks, and in later-than-Marseille Besançon decks, the tip/hilt distinction is retained.
_____

With regards to the flower-representations, I think this is one area that some serious further work, and a variety of suggestions, could indeed be made - so also thankyou for that connection between the pomegranate and the Zoroastrian priesthood!
 

Fulgour

Hello :) Euripides! As students (with open minds) we are
often invited to re-consider "the obvious" when learning,
and for me just such a moment came when I really looked
at the Pear Wood Plates used by Conver in the mid-1700s.

The Swords do not "point" in the direction we now see in
most modern decks... and contrary to vaugue refutals...
the images on these plates are all carved in one direction
and not this way and that, with only the Swords reversed.

Here they are. What do you think?

http://www.camoin.com/en/conver/moules/moule_conver_10.asp

http://www.camoin.com/en/conver/moules/moule_conver_7.asp

*

Mirror, mirror...

Looking at these I noticed the words "read" correctly,
the images of the cards on them is as we know them,
though as printing plates they would be backwards...

So, the pictures of the plates we see here are positive
negatives of the originals, but they're not upside down!
 

Fulgour

even the flowers hang Down...

Here's a view that I've put together
pairing the pearwood plates...

Compare them to the originals...
they're NOT upside-down. ;)
 

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firecatpickles

In early decks, such as TdM & Visconti, aren't the tips of the swords & batons downward facing?
 

euripides

Fascinating! I'm willing to accept that my idea of 'movement' of the swords is off target (I do tend to wander off into poorly-researched flights of fancy. My Literature lecturer would shake his head at my poetry interpretation.) - I hadn't seen that earlier image with the sword-tips. So curved swords they are then!

About these Conver blocks - are you certain the image hasn't been flipped left-to-right by some well-meaning site designer? Have we seen any cards printed in reverse? The info is only in French and I don't read it well enough.
One method of putting a drawing onto a block is to stick the back of it down then to simply carve 'through' the drawing, cutting away the white paper areas. Or, the back of the drawing is dusted with chalk and the drawing (or a printed sheet) is traced on. The reversal, if they are indeed reversed, suggests a copy done by an illiterate or careless craftsman. Even a moderately experienced printer would be familiar enough with letters, one would think, to know that they would be reversed. What gives?

I found this about the Vieville, which does not state the rank, only the number, and the Tarot de Paris, both of which are laterally reversed....
http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards61.htm

hmmm.....


But all the swords other than the Ace appear to be pointing downwards. Can't really argue with that. The flowers on the other cards point in all different directions, so the orientation of those can't really be used to the contrary. An alternative interpretation to 'DOWN' however, is 'TOWARDS' : the sword is pointing straight at the reader, when it is laid on a table.
 

jmd

There are a variety of early decks that are laterally reversed relevative each other - and as mentioned by yourself, this can easily be accounted for by the image transposed on the block and 'traced' over. As to which, in each case, is the earlier model from which an inversal has been made remains to be determined - and that despite a preference given the establishment of the standardised Marseille as it settled in the late 17th century. For example, the Payen-Dodal and the Conver have, on the whole, commonality of important orientations (whether this be with the Emperor or the Hanged Man).

This is not the case with vertical inversals, however, and suggests more that early 'standard' ways of seeing the image is with the straight sword pointing down as 'natural' (what we would generally term 'upright').

Like Fulgour, I too have personally altered my view over the past few years in this regard, and now consider that the upward pointing sword (unless held aloft by a hand) is not 'upright': rather, the 'natural' form is for the point of the straight sword to be downward pointing - and that irrespective as to the manner in which it is presented in various (modern) books or, for that matter, the preference stated by Camoin and Jodorowsky, Rodes and Sanchez, or Hadar for their respective recent Marseille decks.

Having said that, I would not be dismissive of the suggestion of viewing the curved swords or scimitars as exemplifying movement. There is a difference between considering the deck(s) from their likely historical context, and having the flexibility of seeing in the image multivarious form. Both, to me, are important considerations for a deeper understanding of tarot.
 

euripides

jmd said:
Like Fulgour, I too have personally altered my view over the past few years in this regard, and now consider that the upward pointing sword (unless held aloft by a hand) is not 'upright': rather, the 'natural' form is for the point of the straight sword to be downward pointing - and that irrespective as to the manner in which it is presented in various (modern) books or, for that matter, the preference stated by Camoin and Jodorowsky, Rodes and Sanchez, or Hadar for their respective recent Marseille decks.

This makes perfect sense, really, considering that men -wore- swords at their side regularly (if not in everyday society, at least at court?)

I wonder if there's something to be considered in that, also, in terms of how the sword is interpreted. - Potential?


Having said that, I would not be dismissive of the suggestion of viewing the curved swords or scimitars as exemplifying movement. There is a difference between considering the deck(s) from their likely historical context, and having the flexibility of seeing in the image multivarious form. Both, to me, are important considerations for a deeper understanding of tarot.

Funny you should say that; today I drew Temperance in my 'daily draw', and gave some thought to the Greek meaning and my personal interpretation of the card, which is generally at odds with the alchemical sense it usually carries. For some reason, being a historical deck, I felt perhaps there was an imperative to be 'true' to the historical roots of the TdM, but I'm glad that you and others think that it is receptive to additional layers of meaning.
 

Lleminawc

Left/right handedness

Not sure which if either of the Marseille Swords threads this would be appropriate for, but anyway: the Page of Swords came up in a reading the other day and I noticed that he holds the sword in his left hand. I saw this as a sign of awkwardness and inexperience, as the Marseille Pages tend to look somewhat callow and unsure of themselves, but then found that the Knight also uses his left hand.

Now, wouldn't left-handed people have been regarded in medieval and early modern times as gauche, if not sinister (hence the etymology of these words)? The only other left-handers I found are the Knight of Batons and, interestingly, the Devil.

Or could all this be accounted for by errors in ransferring the drawings to the woodblocks?
 

jmd

This quite unexpected aspect regarding the Valet of Swords came up in another thread - but cannot recall which nor when.

It may be worth pointing out that even the Noblet from the 1650s has this Valet holding the sword aloft in his left hand.

Personally, I suspect that this is indeed a result of lateral inversion in the early days, but an inversion that standardised in the Marseille-pattern.

It may also be worth considering that some deck families (such as the Schaffhouse) have left-to-right inversions for some cards only. In this example, look at the unexpected different hand (and cuttings) holding the Ace of swords on two Schaffhouse decks that one may otherwise consider (nearly) identical:

http://fourhares.com/tarot/dynHexSpread.html (scroll to the bottom of the page - the page allows a few of the cards from the two decks to also be seen). The two cards, reversed, are:

Schaffhouse_E1r.jpg
Schaffhouse_E1r.jpg

Clearly here we have lateral reversal on two decks that are both from the same era and the same area.