What type of person is this....

Minderwiz

ncefafn said:
Virgo and Pisces are on the 10th/4th cusps, respectively. Their rulers, Mercury and Neptune are both conjunct the Sun. My guess from this would be that his childhood home was dominated by his father, with the mother looking to her husband for confirmation of her parenting decisions. With the Sun, Mercury and Neptune in the client's first house, his father had a big influence on the development of the client's personality.

Why isn't it the other way around and mother is the dominant?

I'm simply looking for your reasoning here, I'm not disagreeing with you (except that Jupiter is the ruler of Pisces LOL). If both angle rulers are conjunct the Sun in the first, why is one stronger than the other as an influence?

dadsnook2000

Making mountains out of molehills

Ncefafn, let's make some mountains out of molehills. Dramatization sometimes leads us to see small, important things within the larger and perhaps outlandish dramatic scenes. AND, the other list (members) who are lurking but not offering opinions should follow this closely. What follows is not a "you are wrong" statement but is a "could it be this way" statement. It's intended to be a discussion opener.

I would not treat the 4-10 axis so simply as to just note that the rulers are in conjunction in the first house. They are, but we also have to keep in mind all of the other short, summary "conclusions" that we have arrived at --- although we know that we might change some of them as we go along.

Let us go back through the steps that one could take, making the most our of each factor --- dramatizing them for the moment in terms of their childhood meanings!

** MC @ 18 Virgo; Particular, possibly exact or demanding goals, visions and role models are set within the family structure.

** IC @ 18 Pisces; Unrealistic, vague or lack of clarity exists in terms of values, when to start or stop activities, the nature of what is observed or experienced.

** Ruler of the MC is Mercury; represents how one communicate, understands and defines goals and directions to take in life.

** Ruler of the IC is Neptne; represents deception, lack of clarity, illusion, unreal expectations.

** Both 4-10 rulers conjunct each other in the first, and conjunct the Sun, ruler of the 9th. The 9th house represents foriegn travel, higher education and exotic areas of interest.

** Several planets are located in the early degrees of thier signs:
**** Moon @ 2 Leo
**** Pluto @ 3 Libra
**** Sun @ 3 Sag
**** Neptune @ 4 Sag
**** Mercury @ 5 Sag
**** Jupiter @ 9 Cap.
By definition, these planets all have aspectual relationships to each other. This has been noted before in previous posts. Additionally, several factprs are located at/near 18 degrees of some signs, which points to semi-squares (45 degree) and sesquiquadrate (135 degree) as well as square aspects. These hard aspects introduce several challenges of expression.
**** Saturn @ 18 Gemini
**** MC @ 18 Virgo
**** Uranus @ 21 Libra
**** North Node @ 17 Cap.

IT WOULD SEEM THAT THE WHOLE CHART IS TIED TO THE MC-IC AXIS AND/OR IT'S RULERS AND ASPECTS TO THEM.

As for the 4-10 axis, I see confusion for the young child/adult. It is seldom that we see Neptune between the Sun and Mercury. Using these as a mid-point structure, and referring to Neptune, we would find Ebertin saying, "The play of imagination, the development of fantasy, inspiration, to stimulate and deceive oneself . . ." From the book, Planetary Containments by Sandbach and Ballard (a astrological technique not familiar to most on this list) we find, "These individuals internalize their goals and objectives, and live them out through their fantasy-minds, rather than through the realm of solid reality. In this way, theeir energies are scattered and their long range plans may be quite vidid, but their efforts may be inconsistent. They are usually conscious of their obligations and are quite clever at meeting those responsibilities. Their energ, however, may be dissipated. These persons have a quick and vital imagination that will stand them in good stead."

Given the above, and given the prior-mentioned complexities, this person would have had an unreal set of issues to work through and deal with. For the purpose of discussion, we would DISCUSS this with the client if he/she were in front of us, we need to address these possiblities:

** Does this person have gender confusion due to the abnormal childhood environment? Are the parental roles extreme in terms of being fixed or nebulous?

** Has this resulted in this person being, or experimenting with, homosexuality? If so, has this had negative impacts upon them in early life?

** Has this person, since the mid-1970's at birth, and through the last decade, been able to reorient their early training and adult efforts to turn their aptitudes and artistic/dramatic skills, as well as their sensitivities to the problems of others, into a single or mixed-bag of career efforts?

Now, this is the sort of questioning and probing that a capable astrologer would take with a client. BECAUSE, AS GOOD AS WE MAY BE, WE CANNOT DEEPLY HELP SOMEONE WITHOUT HAVING A SENSE OF THE CONTEXT OF THEIR LIFE. WE NEED FEEDBACK IN ORDER TO ADJUST THE SYMBOLS OF THE CHARTS in terms of their commonality or dramatization, they manner in which they were experienced in younger years and may have change over time with experience. Only then can we dig deeper into the range of symbolic meaning to help a person who comes to us.

This is particularly true if we are dealing ONLY WITH A NATAL CHART. If we are asked questions relative to a period or tight date range, then we can employ many other astrological tools to add depth to our understanding. This has been mentioned by Minderwiz. This is something that I and other astrologer do. But, here, now, we are dealing just with a natal chart.

How did this person, this chart, develop over the first and second decade of their life? How was the symbols and patterns in this chart enforced by the charts/people in their family? This is now up for discussion. Dave

Minderwiz

ncefafn, is there an argument that 'Mother' is dominated by 'Father' in this chart? One possible approach could be to weigh the relative strength of their significators.

The 'Mother' is signified by the tenth House, and possibly the Moon (night chart) or Venus (Day chart). This is a night chart, so the Moon is a possibility. Looking at the tenth house, it's ruled by Mercury but has no significant planets in it. So Mercury and Moon could be significators. In terms of essential dignity Mercury as I pointed out before is quite weak in essential dignity and has several accidental debilities despite being in the first house. The Moon is stronger in essential dignity, but only through a mutual reception with Jupiter (by triplicity). It's in the eighth and it is squared by Mars so its accidental dignities are not good. So we have two weak significators.

For the father we have the fourth house ruler - which is Jupiter and not Neptune (which may or may not have an affinity with Pisces). Jupiter is in detriment in Capricorn but has a mutual reception with the Moon by triplicity and with Mercury by term overall Jupiter has positive essential dignity but not as strong as the Moon. However Jupiter is much better when it comes to accidental dignities. The second house is nowhere near as bad as the eighth. Jupiter has no bad aspects and even better it rules Mercury (one of the significators of the Mother) and it rules the Sun, which in turn rules the Moon (the other significator). Both Moon and Mercury are weaker than Jupiter and are in directly or indirectly ruled by it.

That might well lead you to conclude that the Father was more dominant than the Mother. Now as Dave points out this is a simplistic approach to the fourth/tenth axis but it has some Astrological basis. So your conclusion is not 'wrong' at all though we might want to look for several more supporting factors before we were willing to take it as something more than a tentative hypothesis.

As with the 'Mother' there are two significators that we could use for the 'Father' - the Sun in a day chart, Saturn in a night chart. This is a night chart, so Saturn would be the other significator. If Saturn is also stronger than Moon and Mercury, that might give you a little more faith in your hypothesis.

This argument is simplistic but it does provide some evidence to weigh along side other chart indicators. Don't be afraid to advance your ideas, but do try and explain why you think what you do - it helps you to learn if you can write down your reasoning and then think about it for a while, fine tune it and then put it forward for others to talk about. It helps you learn and it helps others learn - learning is not passive. If you're not sure then pose it as a possiblility or even a question

It was brave of you to advance your idea, don't be afraid to try other suggestions.

dadsnook2000

For 214red

214red, ncefafn and I have put forth a discussion on this chart that examined all of the major apsects that one might cover. Although there are many methods of chart examination that might still be employed, what we have covered together does include all that this list's followers would likely use.

At this point I believe it would be good for you to provide some background on this person in terms of gender, current career focus, basic personality, early life within the family, and current life style and situation.

This would permit others to match up the provided background with the astro patterns discussed, to see what we saw in these patterns and how that did or did not link up with reality. This should lead to a more widespread discussion. Dave

214red

Chart Feedback

Thanks esp to Dave, Minderwiz, and ncefafn (loving the name btw)

I will use this post to give you ideas about the person behind the chart, i am also working and trying to catch up on the past few days , so i will do it peicemeal, and keep editing it until its finished. if you wish me to expand anything let me know as there is alot in this thread and i might miss something.

Employment history
James went to rather posh boarding school as a child as his parents travelled the world due to his fathers job. He then went to University and managed to scrape a pass, but only a 3rd in languages as he failed to apply himself. He then went into the army as this had run in the family (skipping his father) as he is patriotic, and adores his grandfather. He was a surveillance officer in the TA (although he will lead you to beleive its the full army), he enjoyed surveillance, this allowed him to feel he was fighting for his country, but doing something he was good at. after he left he floundered for a bit and did a few different things including sales, after a few years he found a suitable job with a government criminal investigation agency as a covert investigator, the agency is also a secretive agency, its not really on the radar.
He has a very moral outlook when it comes to his job, he is patriotic, and he is very good at dealing with all types of people. he likes this job because it allows him to feel like he is saving the world and is a good guy, whilst being involved in slighty dubious activities...but its all in the name of the government.

Although he is morally upright in his work life, he will often use this as deception to allow him to carry out things in his private life (like cheating)

relationship with Parents
never mentions father, adores his grandfather though and sees him as his role model more this his father, he does distance himself a bit from his fathers characteristics. However saying that he is rather more like his father then he would like, and a bit less like his grandfather which disappoints him. Doesnt beleive his mother loved him, or loves him, felt abandoned at boarding school and blames her for leaving him. Looks for mothering from partners to replace what he feels is missing.

Relationships
Has been married multiple times, and breaks up for the same reason all of his relationships break up, reality of the person doesnt live up to their ideal....he thinks every woman is 'the one', and start planning a woman in his head when he doesnt really know her, then he finds out she is a normal person he cheats to find another 'the one'. He is an overlapper, and always thinks someone else is really to blame and he is the innocent partner, however often picks woman that wont live up to his ideal...self sobataging.

he is attracted to women that are independant, ambitious, and are kind to animals and children....oh and who he feels are purer then him. however the scorpio in him gets the better of him, and if they cant be converted he moves on whilst still being in love with the original woman , hopes to change her.
Money
is not good with money, however is lucky enough to have his mother bail him out, which he thinks he is due because she doesnt love him! He takes risks with money and often its a rollercoaster being up and down, he doesnt save for rainy days.he spent a fortune of clothes and cars when he was making alot of money, however now he still earns an okay wage he is hand to mouth,and doesnt really know how to budget. he has been rescued by the women in his life, mainly his wives who are often higher earners then him, however the divorce costs him dearly. He loses money also in child support

identity
struggles to remember who he actually is, often projects who he would like to be, one of his fave sayings is "this is the type of woman i should have for when i become what i want", hence he goes for woman that in his fantasy life he is. his job doesnt help his identity as he spends all the time being someone else, when he stops working he doesnt always remember who he is.

Groups
needs to belong to a group he stands out in, he likes his army mates but doesnt feel as successful as them, so he latches on to other foreign groups to allow him to feel like he belongs and he is special. he joins the group thats outside his ethnic group so he can stand out, he learns everything about the culture so he can fit in but still stand out...because he cant in his other groups.

Emotions
he can use emotions to manipulate people, he shows part of his emotions (he crys at sad movies, and seeing children hurt on TV), however he supresses other heavier emotions unless you are very close to him. although he is aggressive in his job and his persuit of women, he cant deal with emotional conflict, classic passive aggressive. He will apologise for anything to resolve conflict, especially face to face conflict.

he doesnt like being by himself, he needs company, if its not physical it will be on the phone or online...doesnt have hobbies

all in all he is a walking conflict, he is completely moral and upright in his job, and completely amoral in his private life, manages to balance both together, whilst blaming others for his predicament.

Saying this, he is a charmer, he can contridict himself within the same conversation and not realise it. He still fails to see his financial situation, and will often shower a woman with gifts and meals until she is won over, even though he cant afford it. there is and always will be something endearing about the guy, he does the wounded soldier well.
i think once he reconciles he personality with all sides of him he will eventually be happy, however stepping out the fantasy will take time as it seems to affect every part of his life.He is a very good friend, but you wouldnt date him!

214red

Kibeth said:
The Sagi sun and Scorpio ascendant combination strikes me as a lucky guy, as per Sagittarius sun, but may be acting extremely pessimistic because he believes talking about it would drown out that same luck somehow. But his naturally lucky streak will out.

To have such a dark Rising sign makes one wonder what kind of things he'd have been through.

yes he is, however both sides dont last long, he can sounds like he is suicidal then be jumping for joy the next.

214red

ncefafn said:
I have to break it down further than that, and consider each aspect separately. I'm not good at synthesizing.

Moon square Venus suggests that what he needs from a woman emotionally and what he needs romantically are at odds. Moon in Leo suggests he needs praise, adoration, but also fun and playfulness. What he wants romantically is passion, depth, intensity, which is somewhat at odds with the flavor of Leo, but the potential for drama is there in both. The difference to me is light-hearted versus hot and heavy drama.

i agree they are conflicted, so he always goes for someone that wont work in the end, and then blames them (the saturn rx influence also)

ncefafn said:
Moon square Mars suggests to me that he's got a firecracker temper. Hit a nerve, and he'll go off. Also, his need for emotional nurturing and security is at odds with his drive. He either risks too much or not enough.

this is correct two, i did say earlier he is passive agressive, and he is, however when he is angry and its not face to face he can send you really nasty and vindictive communication, although face to face he can cry! he is a risk taker, but he doesnt think about what to take the risk on, he jumps in.

ncefafn said:
Venus conjunct Mars says he's quite passionate, and probably great in the sack. He's sexy as all get out, with both of them in Scorpio. With Venus the ruler of the 7th house, being in the 11th house and conjunct his Mars, he probably will want to marry someone who supports or is already involved with his causes, and will definitely want it to be a friend.

i agree with the passionate part, and he is very scorpio, he is quite magnetic.He will want someone that beleives in him, and what he stands for , thats patriotic, and dont insult the queen ever! i think he would like to marry someone that is a friend, but he hasnt managed that yet

214red

dadsnook2000 said:
Your first statement about emotional and romantic needs are something that a woman would get immediately -- a great observation. See, you've taught me something valuable. That Mars/Scorpio square Moon/Leo is tricky to live with, I'm sure. Mars wants too much to control, to know how the partner values him. A sort of aggressive insecurity, almost. Constant affirmation.

the bullying from his past, and his feeling his mother didnt love him means he needs constant reassurance from women that he is attractive, constant attention, as he feels he missed it when he was a kid, "if you loved me you would give me all your attention!" , will want to know where you are, all the time....but never ask him as he is 'on a job' i would say he is very much on the cusp of the cancer moon, and i can see him as being both.

dadsnook2000 said:
When I look at Mars conjunct Venus I think of "personal poise", an attitude of confidence. The square to the Moon belies that somehow. Perhaps the praise has to be indirect or "coded" so as to assure but not condescend? This is a tough pattern to nail down all by itself.

yes there is an attitude of confidence even if he isnt. i am not sure what you mean about the praise, he needs praise direct and effusive

dadsnook2000 said:
So, let's put another short statement in place! "This person is passionate and emotional but sometimes has difficulty in understanding the responses of others or his/her own reasons for personal conduct in relationships." Ncefafn, you are free to concoct your own statements if you wish.

thats a good statement

214red

dadsnook2000 said:
Yes, the Sun and Moon are in trine relationship. If seen in terms of phase angles, the Moon is in the "honest man" phase wherein the subject tries to be open and direct in how they handle the nature of their character. Being a role model would be important to one's dignity and work.

i would agree he aspires to be a role model and wants to be the honest man, in work he works with dignity

dadsnook2000 said:
HOWEVER, there is a fly in the ointment! Pluto. Pluto is at the mid-point of the Sun and Moon positions. As Ebertin notes in his Combination of Stellar Influences, "A soul torn by inner conflict, biased attitude or changed circumstances lead to critical phases of development in life or to separation from others." Not a comforting picture. And, over some 40 years, I've come to find that these interpretations can almost be taken literally.

yes i agree with this, mostly its in my other post, he is torn by conflicts, mainly of who he is, and what he wants to be, and what he wants from someone else

dadsnook2000 said:
Modern astrologers tend to link Pluto to Scorpio due to some of the characteristics attributed to that sign. This would represent a dark, sometimes morose or inner-focused person who is always trying to understand himself through the process of understanding others. This would fit with earlier statements about needing constant assurance.

yes, it takes him longer because he needs to apply this to himself....and in reality not is fantasy

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214red

ncefafn said:
NCEFAFN=Not Cool Enough For A Funky Nickname. In reasonable circles, I am known as Kim.

Okay, so on with the astrology. At first, I didn't think there was any relationship between the Moon and Saturn, and then I did the math and noticed that there is a semi-square there. If squares are tension, I think of semi-squares as a burr in one's britches. It's just niggling irritation, suggesting there may have been some underlying, unspoken tension in the childhood home between the parents.

yes, the classic british stiff upper lip, the unspoken issues that can be felt into the air

ncefafn said:
With the Moon and Saturn in the 8th and 7th houses, respectively, this niggling tension could well carry over into his romantic relationships, specifically, his long-term commitments. I read Saturn in the 7th as a fear of commitment and marriage.

saturn is also Rx, so as i said earlier he sabatages himself by who he picks to marriage, although he wants commitment, it scares him at the same time, but he still wants to get married again because he is an optimist...he is looking for a woman to save him, when he find 'the one' he will be cured of cheating....so he will marry until he finds her.

ncefafn said:
've never had a really good grasp of the 8th house. I know it rules occult studies, other people's money, insurance, taxes, death, but I have difficulty incorporating those things into a reading. What I tend to fall back on is Zipporah Dobyns key number system, linking the 8th house with Scorpio. So I read the Moon in the 8th as needing deep connections. Perhaps he had an intense bond with his mother, picking up empathically on her emotions as a child. Any tension she felt , he would have felt too, which might thus discourage him from marrying.

i think the 8th here is very much about other peoples money, he is supported still by his parents, as his inheritance. Also as other peoples money he gained and lost through marriage, and is currently on the losing side. i think he is punishing his mother for her lack of affection in childhood by making her support him