The History of Things

Huck

Here "Izota" is buried in a book ...

vulgus-11.jpg


... and the description is longer, starting page 230
https://archive.org/stream/krckiknezovifran00klaiuoft#page/242/mode/2up

... and the language is rather "foreign"

Krcki knezovi Frankapani. by Vjekoslav Klaic
Krcki knezovi Frankapani.
Published 1901 by Izd. Matice hrvatske in Zagreb

I understand, that we would understand more, if we could read this.
 

Rosanne

The language is Bosnian. I am going to try and find translation.
Her eldest heir as born on the mainland of Croatia- but you are right -KrK Island is pronounced Crock it would seem. The Book is titled... something something until the Barons lost the Island. So it is frangipane history in Croatia's KrK. The Italians called the Island something totally different- Veglia . An old Roman name in Latin was Curicta.
~Rosanne
 

Huck

Google recognizes Croatian language. I don't know, if there's a difference to Bosnian. Google's translation is horrible. But I get, that Stephan attempted to make a relationship to Alfonso V. of Aragon, who had larger plans, when he had arrived successfully in Naples. Alfonso engaged also at the Balkan, and Stephan's places became the places for Alfonso's ambassadors. And the speculations on Hungary didn't work out, similar to hopes on a throne in Milan. Stephan had some trouble with his relatives.

Leonello had married a daughter of Alfonso in 1444, so Stephan became interested in a sister of Leonello.
After his wife died, Stephan took further Italian contacts, also to Sforza.

In a pdf-file I get the info, that the time of death might have been January 1457, not 1456. The burial place was Senj (as far I understood it) and it was bombed 1443 (close to the island Krk). There were attempts to reconstruct the plate.
 

Huck

Well,

inside this story we meet a relative of Barbara von Cilly, wife of Emperor Sigismondo, earlier discussed as the possible Empress in the PMB-deck.

Barbara had a brother, Friedrich II von Cilly. He killed his wife, Elisabeth of Frangipani in 1422 ...

Duimo (Duym) II Frangepán, Ct of Veglia, fl 1280-1316; m.Ursa N (de Vodièa = Babonic = Blagay) (+before 16.10.1343); They had issue:

-- A1. Frigyes IV, Ct of Veglia, Vindol, Modrus and Gaèka, fl 1306-22; m.before 1313 Erzsébet N (+after 1315)
---- B1. Duimo (Duym) III, Ct of Veglia and Modrus, Pozsega vármegye fõispánja (obergespan of Pozsega), fl 1323-49; m.Erzsébet Subich (fl 1347), dau.of Mladen II Subich, Ban of Croatia and Dalmatia
------ C1. Erzsébet, fl 1346-47; m.Pavao II Subich (+VII.1346)
---- B2. Bertalan V, Ct of Veglia and Modrus, Somogyi fõispán (obergespan of Somogy), fl 1334-61; m.NN, sister of Ulrich N
------ C1. István I, Ct of Veglia and Modrus, fl 1359, +30.9.1388/IV.1390; m.1372 Caterina Carrara (+after 5.10.1405), dau.of Francesco Carrara, Lord of Padua
-------- D1. Erzsébet, +murdered 1422; m.1401 Gf Friedrich II von Cilli (+19.6.1454)
------ C2. Margit, fl 1353, +before 1390; m.before 11.8.1353 Otto von Stubenberg (+10.3.1402)
------ C3. a daughter; m.23.5.1361 Ugo di Duino (fl 1386-90)
------ C4. János V, Ct of Veglia and Modrus, Ban of Croatia and Dalmatia, +29.11.1393; m.23.5.1361 Anna von Görz (+5.9.1402)
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/balkan/frangep2.html

Stephan Frangipani descended from C4, so the murdered Elisabeth = Erzsébet had been a aunt (second degree) to him.

The son of Fredrick II of Cilly and Elisabeth Frangipani was Ulrich II von Cilly .

Ulrich II von Cilly controlled Hungary since 1452, cause he forced the emperor Fredrick to give him Ladislaus posthumus (after emperor Fredrick and Ladislaus had returned from Italy, where both were together).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_II_of_Celje

392px-Ulrich_II._of_Cilli.JPG


Ladislaus Posthumus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_the_Posthumous
Elisabeth (mother of Ladislaus) arranged for Ladislaus (* 1440, son of Roman king Albrecht, who had died) to be crowned at Székesfehérvár on 15 May 1440.

For safety's sake, she placed Ladislaus under the guardianship of his Habsburg relative Frederick V, who proceeded to hold him as a virtual prisoner in Schloss Ort and rule Austria himself. On the death of Vladislaus I at the Battle of Varna on 10 November 1444, the Hungarian estates, despite considerable opposition, elected Ladislaus Postumus as their king and sent a deputation to Vienna to induce Frederick to surrender the child and the Holy Crown, which he refused to do. In the meantime, John Hunyadi acted as regent for Ladislaus in Hungary, while George of Poděbrady performed the same office in Bohemia.

From 1450 the pressure of the Austrian estates to free Ladislaus grew. In 1452, they entered into the Mailberg Confederation under the leadership of Ulrich, Baron of Eyczing (de), and Ulrich II, Princely Count of Celje, and freed Ladislaus by force. Ulrich of Celje, a Slovenian magnate and heir to Bosnia, the cousin of Ladislaus's mother, prevailed against Eyczing and became the new guardian of the child, effectively ruling in his stead.

On 28 October 1453, at the age of thirteen, Ladislaus Postumus was finally crowned King of Bohemia, after which he lived mainly in Prague or Vienna. Ulrich of Celje and Ladislaus remained indifferent to the threat posed in Hungary by the Turks, and Ulrich became increasingly hostile towards John Hunyadi (Hungarian: Hunyadi János), who was bearing the main burden of the battles against the Ottomans. On the death of Hunyadi, Ladislaus made Ulrich governor of Hungary in October 1456 at the Diet of Futtak. After the Siege of Belgrade, Ulrich was murdered by Ladislaus Hunyadi (Hungarian: Hunyadi László). Ladislaus had the young Hunyadi beheaded on 16 March 1457. This raised such a storm in Hungary that the king had to flee to Prague, where he spent the last months of his life.

Ladislaus Hunyadi, the murderer, has this story:
Ladislaus Hunyadi or László Hunyadi (1431[1] – March 16, 1457) was a Hungarian statesman.

Ladislaus Hunyadi was the elder of the two sons of John Hunyadi, voivode of Transylvania and later regent of the Kingdom of Hungary, and Elizabeth Szilágyi. He was the older brother of Matthias Hunyadi, who would later became the king of Hungary. At a very early age he accompanied his father in his campaigns. After the battle of Kosovo (1448) he was left for a time, as a hostage for his father, in the hands of George Brankovic (1427–1456), despot of Serbia. In 1452 he was a member of the deputation which went to Vienna to receive back the Hungarian king Ladislaus V. In 1453 he was already ban of Croatia and Dalmatia.[2] At the diet of Buda (1455) he resigned all his dignities, because of the accusations of Ulrich II of Celje and the other enemies of his house, but a reconciliation was ultimately patched up and he was betrothed to Maria, the daughter of the palatine, Ladislaus Garai.

After his father's death in 1456, he was declared by his enemy Ulrich II of Celje (now Captain General of Hungary with significant power), responsible for the debts alleged to be owing by the elder Hunyadi to the state; but he defended himself so ably at the diet of Futak (October 1456) that Ulrich II of Celje feigned a reconciliation, promising to protect the Hunyadis on condition that they first surrendered all the royal castles entrusted to them. A beginning was to be made with the fortress of Nándorfehérvár (now Belgrade, Serbia) of which Hunyadi was commandant.[3] While admitting Ladislaus V and Ulrich, Hunyadi excluded their army of mercenaries. On the following morning (November 9, 1456) Ulrich II of Celje was killed by Hunyadi's men in unclear circumstances. Later Hunyadi served as master of the horse (Hungarian: lovászmester) until his death.[4]

The terrified young king, thereupon pardoned Hunyadi, and at a subsequent interview with his mother at Temesvár swore that he would protect the whole family. As a pledge of his sincerity he appointed Hunyadi lord treasurer and captain-general of the kingdom. Suspecting no evil, Hunyadi accompanied the king to Buda. But on arriving there he was arrested on a charge of plotting against the king, condemned to death without the observance of any legal formalities, and beheaded on the 16 March 1457.

He is the protagonist of a popular Hungarian opera, Hunyadi László by Ferenc Erkel.

Hungary elected Matthias Corvinus (son of John Hunyadi) then.
Bohemia took George of Poděbrady, a Hussite ruler.
Austria was parted between emperor Fredrick III and his brother Albert IV.

In Croatia the opinions were splitted, also between Stephan and his brothers. Stephen took side with Matthias Corvinus. Stephan participated at the congress of Mantova. With the beginning of the war between Venice and Constantinople (1463-1479), Croatia started to be involved with Turkish invasions.
 

Rosanne

Well I have now Ladislaus-itis.
Had these men ever considered anullment as a course of action.....:rolleyes:
Church says "you cannot divorce" God says "you shalt not kill" These men say "we will deal with God Later!"
So as possibility of Empress in the PMB is our Barbara, whose brother killed his wife. :bugeyed:
It is no wonder Italian girls looked askance at prospective Bridegrooms.
Pulling petals off daisy sighing "will he killl me, will he not?" You bet I would have tried to read my own cards, or gone to a soothsayer.
Incestuous lot really, when you look back at history- everyone seems related.
I thought Isotta as going to a more colourful life, with cards from the East to play with, instead she is dead by thirty. You have to wonder if it was the pestilence that killed her.

I checked with a Dalmation (not the dog) and he did not know if Croatian and Bosnian was the same written language- but he did say KrK had their own alphabet.
~Rosanne
 

Huck

I took a view on the use of the title "ban". It was in the critical time (15th/16th century) the highest title one could get in the three regions Slowenia, Dalmatia and Croatia. A sort of premier minister, one highest official in all 3 regions.

Wikipedia has a list of the bans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_of_Croatia
The name Frangipani appears in the following years.

1391–1393 Ivan Frankopan of Krk, (died 1393), also at the time the Ban of Slavonia (as all, who follow)
...
(1406-1408 Heinrich II von Cilly (father of Friedrich II., grand father of Ulrich of Cilly))
...
1426-1432 Nikola Frankopan, Son of ban Ivan Frankopan
(a pause of one year with no ban at all)
1434-1437 Stjepan Frankopan ("our Stephan, who married Isotta"), co-ruled with Ivan Frankopan 1434-1436
(a pause of 9 years with no ban at all)
(1446–1450 Ivan Hunyadi)
(a pause of 3 years with no ban at all)
(1454–1455 Ladislav Hunyadi (who killed Ulrich von Cillly) )
1456-1458 co-Ban Nikola Frankopan, Son of Ban Nikola Frankopan
...
1575 Krsto (Christopher) Frankopan (Frangepan) ("our Christopher, who married Apollonia") (died 1527) Grandson of Ban Stephen Frankopan

********

One can see, that a period of 32 years (1426-58) was dominated either by a Hunyadi or a Frankopan ... this is unusual for the list of the bans (as you can compare).

The break of 9 years (1437 - 1446) with "no ban in three regions" started with the death of emperor Sigismondo, who had been an Hungarian emperor. That's likely not an accident, but just indicates a general period of Hungarian confusion. The state found more stability with the election of Matthias Corvinus, son of John Hunyadi, in 1458. And that's just the year, when the Frangipani influence took a long pause.

Heinrich II. of Cilly had been of great help in the period, when Sigismund developed from a King of Hungary to Emperor Sigismondo. So Sigismondo married his daughter Barbara (1405), which happened to be a rather unlucky choice, cause she didn't get a son.
 

Rosanne

The Etymology of the word 'Ban' is interesting.
The Late Proto-Slavic word *banъ is not of native Slavic lexical stock, and is generally explained as a prehistoric borrowing from a Turkic language, from the Avar word bajan meaning "ruler of the horde", a derivation of the Proto-Turkic root *bāj- "rich, noble". The term was also borrowed from a Turkic source into Mongolian, where it is preserved in a basically identical form to this day as bajan "rich".
It seems that in some places a Ban was like a Ducal Prince.
Croatia was overrun and devastated by the Golden Horde in the 13th Century.
I was interested to note that Janissery troops were collected from this area as well, and some revolted and returned to their homeland after 1449. Janissery were like the Mamluks.
So maybe there is an Hungarian connection to Tarot.
~Rosanne
 

Huck

The Etymology of the word 'Ban' is interesting.

It seems that in some places a Ban was like a Ducal Prince.
Croatia was overrun and devastated by the Golden Horde in the 13th Century.
I was interested to note that Janissery troops were collected from this area as well, and some revolted and returned to their homeland after 1449. Janissery were like the Mamluks.
So maybe there is an Hungarian connection to Tarot.
~Rosanne

... :) ... We research only the marriage way of a Ferrarese bride to the rather near island of Krk. And she married a half-Italian. That's not so far, as if she had crossed the Alps. Or would have married to Rome.

A little more far away than Frangipani is Hunyadi ...

Burg_Vajad_Hunyad_%28Rumaenien%29.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunyad_Castle

800px-Hunyad_Castle_TB1.jpg


... and Hunyadi's son Matthias Corvinus married Beatrice d'Aragon from Naples. And Ercole's wife Eleanor had sent Trionfi cards to her son at the Hungarian court in 1493.

Some think, that Hunyadi was a Cuman ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuman_people
... and the Cumans are said to have come from East of the Yellow River. That's really far. On a long way of course.

354px-Iancu_Hunedoara.jpg


Well, there was once something like the Bulgarian Empire ... which was rather big. And then there was Louis of Hungary, who got a rather big kingdom, which extended nearly to Constantinople. Likely the big plague 1350 helped, that he could get it. That was rather precisely the time, when John of Rheinfelden spoke about the invasion of the playing cards, 1377.

768px-Lands_under_Louis_the_Great_in_the_middle_of_the_14th_century.jpg

File:Lands under Louis the Great in the middle of the 14th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lands_under_Louis_the_Great_in_the_middle_of_the_14th_century.jpg

Well, the private Trionfi.com hypothesis says, that playing cards were known in Bohemia in 1340 (based on some remarks of the researcher F.L. Hübsch in 1850, who noted documents, which nobody knows). The distance from Prague to the region, where the Goldene Horde settled, is shorter than the distance from Prague to Rome. If playing cards came from China with the Mongols, they didn't need to come via the Mamluks-Venetian ships etc. The Southern German playing cards hadn't much of the Latin suits. Maybe Spain got its early cards from the Mamluks. A new medium can enter new regions parallel at different places.

Bohemia likely got it from Poland or from somewhere in the East.

The Mamluks, btw., are also suspected to have been Cumans.
 

Rosanne

... :) ... We research only the marriage way of a Ferrarese bride to the rather near island of Krk. And she married a half-Italian. That's not so far, as if she had crossed the Alps. Or would have married to Rome.
I know, I know...but a little drifting should be allowed :p

A little more far away than Frangipani is Hunyadi ...
Fairy tale castles are they not?

... and Hunyadi's son Matthias Corvinus married Beatrice d'Aragon from Naples. And Ercole's wife Eleanor had sent Trionfi cards to her son at the Hungarian court in 1493.

Some think, that Hunyadi was a Cuman ...
Well, there was once something like the Bulgarian Empire ... which was rather big. And then there was Louis of Hungary, who got a rather big kingdom, which extended nearly to Constantinople. Likely the big plague 1350 helped, that he could get it. That was rather precisely the time, when John of Rheinfelden spoke about the invasion of the playing cards, 1377.......snip

Well, the private Trionfi.com hypothesis says, that playing cards were known in Bohemia in 1340 (based on some remarks of the researcher F.L. Hübsch in 1850, who noted documents, which nobody knows).

Well there is this enduring idea that gypsies bought cards to Europe. It is scotched by Historians of Tarot. What if there was a little fire to the smoke?
The Rom fled from the Balkans because of the Turks in the 14th century and landed in Hungary. What if this was the 'gypsy' connection, not via Spain, but via the Balkans with the Rom? Tiny little grains of collective memory, but wrong trail. Diaspora of various peoples, gets very confusing. I have this marvelous little book with maps and charts called Atlas of the Worldwide Human Diaspora. It shows me that the Avari Rom went as far as Bohemia from the Balkans in the 14th Century.

The Mamluks, btw., are also suspected to have been Cumans.
Interesting suspicion!

~Rosanne
 

Huck

I know, I know...but a little drifting should be allowed :p

The major object in my earlier post is the condition, that a whole bench of Sforza Tarocchi cards is dated to 1512.

The other parts are "just history". It's interesting to know details of the participating persons.

The Cilly or Celje had a certain relation to the Frangipani. The house of Cilly was strong in Slowenia, and Frangipani was strong in Croatia, both countries are neighbors.

800px-Vischer_-_Topographia_Ducatus_Stiria_-_035_Cilli_-_Celje.jpg


This was their castle in castle in Cilly (or Celje).

800px-Celjski_grad_s_Pe%C4%8Dovnika.jpg


Celje Castle was not only the most important castle in Slovenia, but in the entire eastern Alps. It covered an area of almost 5500 m². From the ruins that remain and from depictions of the castle that have survived, it is possible to paint a detailed picture of how it once looked. Several new techniques were employed in the castle’s architectural development, which were the model for other castles in the region under Celje’s influence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celje_Castle

******

This book ...

Die vier letzten Lebensjahre des Grafen Ulrich II. von Cilli: mit besonderer Berücksichtigung der Stände-Revolution in Oesterreich in den Jahren 1451 und 1452. (1868)
by Alexander Supan
http://books.google.de/books?id=t5IJAAAAIAAJ&dq=ulrich+von+cilli&source=gbs_navlinks_s

... goes to details about the person Ulrich II. von Cilli, especially about the year 1452 (when emperor Fredrick III made his Italy journey). After Fredrick returned to Austria a revolution took place (with some real fighting), and Fredrick was urged to pass Ladislaus posthumus to the Austrians.