Thothy-ness

Marie-Bernard

What makes the Thoth...Thoth? I was using the Ancient Egyptian today and while Barrett emphasizes decans and colors (although not even close to the extent LFH did) it seems like having dying and rising sun gods all over the place really flies in the face of what it would mean to be Thoth-based.

So what is Thoth to you? Must it include AC's changes to the Tarot that (I think) reflect Thelemic philosophy? Is it enough to have a more obvious inclusion of decans? Or is it just anything NOT RWS?
 

chimera68

thothy goodness.

Maybe I'll delete my post and sit this one out. Thank you.
 

ravenest

What makes the Thoth...Thoth? I was using the Ancient Egyptian today and while Barrett emphasizes decans and colors (although not even close to the extent LFH did) it seems like having dying and rising sun gods all over the place really flies in the face of what it would mean to be Thoth-based.

Its archaeology ;)
So what is Thoth to you? Must it include AC's changes to the Tarot that (I think) reflect Thelemic philosophy?

Mostly this, yes.

Is it enough to have a more obvious inclusion of decans? Or is it just anything NOT RWS?

No I think the first statement far overrules those. Its very specific to Crowley's system, not just Thelemic generally but OTO specifically. In a way, the Thoth deck can be seen as a series of OTO tracing boards; their mysteries laid out on the framework of the Universe.
 

Marie-Bernard

When using the Ancient Egyptian I felt like the descriptions I'd read of it as "Thoth-based" really meant "not RWS." So I'm asking, What is the meta-Thoth? If one distilled the essence of Thoth and poured it into another deck, what would it need to contain?

*Also what descriptor could be used for something like the AE? Golden Dawn based?
 

Richard

In order for a deck to be structurally equivalent to the Thoth, here is what it needs.

1. The Trumps should have the same numbering as the Thoth. I.e., Justice (Adjustment) is 8, and Strength (lust) is 11. (This is the same as the historical decks, but different from the Golden Dawn and Rider-Waite numbering.)

2. The attributions of the Trumps should be the same as the Thoth. For example, the Star has the Hebrew letter Heh and the astrological sign Aquarius. The Emperor should have the Hebrew letter Tzaddi and the sign Aries. (The Hebrew letters for these two cards are interchanged from the Golden Dawn attributions. The attributions of the other Trumps are the same as in the Golden Dawn.)

3. The pip cards 2 through 10 should have the same decan attributions as the Thoth pips. (The decans are astrologically the same as the Golden Dawn decans but sometimes have different titles. For example, the 5 of Cups is the decan of Mars in Scorpio, but the Thoth title is Disappointment, whereas the Golden Dawn title is [Lord of] Loss in Pleasure.)

4. The court cards of Thoth and the Golden Dawn are structurally the same and have the same elemental and astrological attributions. Likewise for the Thoth and Golden Dawn aces.
 

ravenest

When using the Ancient Egyptian I felt like the descriptions I'd read of it as "Thoth-based" really meant "not RWS." So I'm asking, What is the meta-Thoth? If one distilled the essence of Thoth and poured it into another deck, what would it need to contain?

I guess its an opinion of the person that wrote the description. IMO it could also mean (according to others) cards with non-pictorial minors, titles printed on the minors, attributions printed on the cards ... even cards that seem different but are based on a the same ideas but with different depictions, cards that show extra association from 777 (DuQuette's Tarot of Ceremonial Magick could fit some of these descriptions?).

In your example, if it is Thoth based it would be more 'Thelemic Neo-Egyptian' than 'Ancient Egyptian' - it may well mean (according to whoever wrote it) that is closer to Thoth than RW.

*Also what descriptor could be used for something like the AE? Golden Dawn based?

I think it would follow their kabbalistic and astrological associations and adopt their titles or similar ones. With tarot it mostly seems, different versions of a deck are put out primarily to show peoples variant artistic expressions.
 

Grigori

I"d tend to agree with LRichard, and also want to see Thelemic influence present.
 

Aeon418

I"d tend to agree with LRichard, and also want to see Thelemic influence present.

Crowley says something along these lines in The Book of Thoth (p.24-25).

Aleister Crowley said:
From the foregoing it will be clear that the Tarot illustrates first of all, the Tree of Life in it's universal aspect, and secondly, the particular comment illustrating that phase of the Tree of Life which is of peculiar interest to those persons charged with the guardianship of the human race at the particular moment of the production of any given authorised pack. It is therefore proper for those guardians to modify the aspect of the pack when it seems to them good to do so.

So there you have it. Distilled Thothy-ness in a bottle. :laugh:

1) The Tarot must illustrate the Tree of Life in it's universal aspect. 22 Paths and 10 Sephiroth in all four worlds. Plus the four elements divided into 16 subelements.

2) "The particular comment illustrating that phase of the Tree of Life." Phase of the Tree of Life? As stated above the Tree is universal, so how can it go through phases? Well it doesn't. But we do. ;)
The distinctive Thothy-ness that sets this deck apart from other decks is that it attempts to illustrate the Tree of Life from the perspective of expanded awareness. The Tree itself doesn't change, but our perspective does and Tarot must change to reflect that.

Example: Atu XX Judgement(Shin) becomes XX Aeon(Shin).
Both cards represent the Path of Shin. At a certain level of consciousness (primarily personality centered consciousness) the action of this Path may be experienced as a process of death and resurrection. But with expanded awareness it becomes clear that this 'death and resurrection' is not what it appeared to be. A better motif that more adequately expresses the mature understanding of this Path is an image of Continual Birth.
 

Zephyros

For me it is completely about ideology and general philosophy. The structure and symbolic language of the Thoth is, with some exceptions, standard GD (things like the Emperor/Star switch notwithstanding). Its innovations really don't seem to be game-changers. If structure were the thing, the Thoth could easily be compared with any other GD deck. Animal Farm and Othello are both in English, but that's just about where the similarities end.

What sets the Thoth apart is what it says with the "standard" GD language, and the way it says it. I was unsure of how to respond to this thread, but Aeon hit it on the nail, although I may be even more of a purist. The Thoth is a truly updated Tarot, far beyond any "modernized" decks that simply rehash many of the same ideas (having to do with suffering and sacrifice, but that's a discussion for another time). For this reason I don't hold "other" Thoth decks in that high esteem. They get the language right, but seem to miss the point.
 

Richard

There are Thoth type decks, and there are Golden Dawn type decks. There may be superficial similarities in the overall artistic ambience (for want of a better word) of the two types of decks, but they actually are quite different, the model for the Golden Dawn decks being the card descriptions in Book T, whereas the Thoth decks tend to base their Trumps more on the original Thoth deck, which itself represents a further evolutionary development (perhaps including occasional mutations) of the Golden Dawn images.

If one is new to the Thoth system and doesn't particularly like Frieda's artistic style, they may look around for a similar deck having images with which they have a better rapport. If they plan to use the deck with a book keyed to the original Thoth deck, it would be much less confusing to use a deck which has the original Thoth structure, the litmus tests being the numbering of the Trumps and the Hebrew letter attributions of Star and Emperor. (These may seem superficial, but actually they are significant factors in Crowley's very meticulous development of the Thoth.)

In short, if one is interested in learning the Thoth system, I think it would be best to use the original Thoth. If that is not satisfactory for any reason, use a Thoth "clone," i.e. a deck having the Thoth structure, with images thematically based on those of the original Thoth. A third possibility would be a Golden Dawn deck without the specific Thoth structure, but I think this third option could be somewhat confusing unless one already has at least a superficial grasp of the Thoth system.