Upside-down M solved [maybe]

Abrac

I've read parts of Waite's Hidden Church of the Holy Graal but not the whole thing through. Maybe I will if the TV and internet ever go away. :laugh:

From what I know of the Grail legend, the cup was first the receptacle of wine, then of Christ's blood, possibly mixed with water. It would seem odd to me to put a W on the cup to represent water and completely ignore the wine and blood.
 

Richard

Hi LRichard, I get where you're coming from. You're saying W = Water. I can see that. But it's the M = Mem/Mother I can't get on board with because of Waite's stated antipathy toward connecting Hebrew letters with suits of the minors. If M ≠ Mem or Mother, it's a lot harder to conclude W = Water.......

I don't think that the letter M has anything to do with Mem (which coincidentally happens to refer to Water in the Sepher Yetzirah). It is a semantic approximation to the significance of the second letter of the Tetragrammaton as the (Supernal) Mother.

I did not intend to complicate my post by reference to Hebrew letters. I was just impressed by the fact that the only cards in the Golden Dawn deck which incorporate (Hebrew) letters in the images are the Ace of Cups (Heh) and Judgement (Shin). Perhaps this suggested to Waite to use a letter (not Hebrew, but a letter nonetheless) in the Ace of Cups.
 

Richard

I've read parts of Waite's Hidden Church of the Holy Graal but not the whole thing through. Maybe I will if the TV and internet ever go away. :laugh:

From what I know of the Grail legend, the cup was first the receptacle of wine, then of Christ's blood, possibly mixed with water. It would seem odd to me to put a W on the cup to represent water and completely ignore the wine and blood.

I don't do TV, but I did get distracted by the NCAA Tournament (aka March Madness), which I listened to on radio. Go Duke! (Not my first choice, but UNC and NC State have been eliminated.)

I think of water as metaphorically representing the wine and blood of the sacrament. I do not think that we are fundamentally in disagreement.
 

Teheuti

My exact words were: . . . .

My speculation is that Waite's reluctance to reveal GD "secrets" may have caused him to approximate the significance of the second letter of the Tetragrammaton with the letter M for (Supernal) Mother.
I get it now. Thanks. It seems like quite a stretch. However, I also believe that Waite may have intended a whole variety of potential M meanings, including those that 'play' with the congruence between M & W like Mara (bitter Sea) and Water. Mystery seems the strongest contender because 1) its importance in his writing/thinking and 2) it incorporates all the other possibilities within it.
 

Richard

......Mystery seems the strongest contender because 1) its importance in his writing/thinking and 2) it incorporates all the other possibilities within it.

Very plausible, especially since it has a secondary significance as Sacrament.
 

Abrac

After thinking about it, I've started looking at this from a different angle. Considering the cup is a holy vessel, I seriously doubt Waite would've put his initial on it. When you look at pictures of old Eucharist vessels they're often decorated with religious symbols, pictures of saints, etc.

So if it doesn't stand for Waite, what is it? The sacrament of the Eucharist has three critical elements, 1) the wafer; 2) the wine; 3) the sacred words of consecration. The words are the blessing the priest pronounces over the elements that mystically transforms them. It comes from the Last Supper in the New Testament where Christ supposedly pronounced the original blessing over the elements. However, what the words are is a bit of a mystery since they aren't recorded.

In The Hidden Church, Waite goes into this at some length. The "Secret Words" are essential for the healing powers of the Grail to work.

So in the Ace of Cups we can now see all three elements represented, "W" symbolizing the secrets words of consecration. I believe he instructed Pamela to use an upside-down M as a way of illustrating the mysterious or secret nature of the words. Or Pamela may have taken it upon herself to do it, but it seems more likely to me it was Waite.

I could be wrong, but one thing I feel confident of is the "W" doesn't stand for Waite, so I'm rethinking the whole thing. If the "W" doesn't represent Word or Words, I'm not sure what it could be. :)
 

onesun

According to Robert Place as he writes in his 'Tarot History, Symbolism and Divination' the 'M' is in reference to Mary and is placed upside down to receive the Host as delivered by the dove (typical symbol of Holy Spirit).

Additionally, as an artist and calligrapher I can say with a reasonable degree of confidence this is not a W. The style of this letterform illustrated by Pamela on the Ace/Cups is based on modern calligraphy blend with typical Bodini or Garamond font style, ones that have small defined serifs. It's highly unusual to find a W with the outside 'staffs' depicted with perfect parallel lines which are perpendicular to the serifs..the staffs almost always are slightly canted (diagonals) as we can see even here in this post as shown in Helvetica type font ---> W). Also, within the inside of the parallel 'staffs' there the lines come off the staffs and converge to form a V you can see one is thicker, the other thinner. The thicker one is most often began on the left side of the letterform, which would also indicate the orientation as being one of an upside down M <---- also shown here in helvetica with the staffs parallel.

I don't know if I clarified this issue or made it confusing but my bet it is in fact an M shown upside down on an upright card.
 

Abrac

Hi onesun. The W is clearly an upside-down M, that issue isn't in question. If you compare the W on the cup to other Ms in Pamela's titles it's obvious.

I don't discount the idea it's a reference to Mary, but to my way of thinking, the W and M are interrelated, two sides of the same coin, or the exoteric and esoteric aspects of the same thing. In that vein, if M = Mary, what is W?
 

Richard

Mary, represented by the letter M: Queen of Heaven, Supernal Mother, Binah, Holy Grail, the receptacle of the life giving influx of the Holy Spirit. (All this is metaphorical, of course, a poetic way of thinking which seems to be unfamiliar to this esoteric kindergarten.)

The letter W is a double U (V), not an upside down M, and while there is no W in the image, if one wishes to pretend, it could represent elemental Water (another reference to Mary as the Supernal Mother, not kindergarten H2O).
 

Abrac

LRichard, why do you think it's a double U (V)?