DuQuette?

When I started the book i thought it was gonna be as good all the way...but I must tell you...im feeling a 5 of Cups right now about his work...

I'm not sure if im the only one noticing this ...throughout the book he made many anti-religion statement...especially towards Christianity... for example...in his discussing of the 4 of wands Completion...he said something to the effect that..."Jehovah is really not God although he thinks he is"... He seems as if that hes trying to bash Christianity whenever he can...even Crowley doesnt do that himself...Therefore, I think, that he may send out a wrong message to would be Christian THOTH Tarot fans that Crowley and Thoth are anti-Christ... I mean this guy is at times funny, sure...and at times overly chatting...thats fine...but i believe that a good book should not downplay any doctrines or religions....It is a universal code of ethics for Tarot readers to respect their clients' beliefs and religions but DuQuette has violated a professional code himself....Im not sure if it is due to OTO's influnces on him But , regardless, he should not write something to the effect that, smiliar to..Budda is not God, Alah is not God, and Jehovah is not God

Cosmotaroist said:

...he said something to the effect that..."Jehovah is really not God although he thinks he is"... He seems as if that hes trying to bash Christianity whenever he can...even Crowley doesnt do that himself...Therefore, I think, that he may send out a wrong message to would be Christian THOTH Tarot fans that Crowley and Thoth are anti-Christ

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Well, in a way he is right. One can show the western evolution of the concept of diety from a primative local god, through to an egomanic jealous god (I'd stick Jehovah at Geburah, not Kether), then all of a sudden THE God, through Juadism, Christianity and Islam to the God we 'understand' today. Read the old testament esp, Exodus, does that sound like God?
I think Jehovah is more a 4-square elemental explaination of how diety works, but that is Western Hermetic Qabalah and not 'religion' as such.

Cosmotaroist said:

... I mean this guy is at times funny, sure...and at times overly chatting...thats fine...but i believe that a good book should not downplay any doctrines or religions....It is a universal code of ethics for Tarot readers to respect their clients' beliefs and religions but DuQuette has violated a professional code himself..

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Somewhere around here (on a thread) recently I was trying to explain personally why I dont like Duquette, it's hard ... I just dont, its got something to do with his corneyness, overly chatty, down right sillyness at times (yet who am I to talk? ), just not my type of guy.

Cosmotaroist said:

..Im not sure if it is due to OTO's influnces on him But , regardless, he should not write something to the effect that, smiliar to..Budda is not God, Alah is not God, and Jehovah is not God

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The OTO teaches respect for other religions (specifically relating to this question, in fact) within their initiation rites. So they are not to blame for his attitudes.

But I think one could broaden the perspective a bit. Whoever said Budda WAS God? Buddhists teach there IS NO god, nor a soul. Buddha would be spinning in his grave (if there was such a thing as the afterlife) if he knew people were interpreting his lifes work like this!

Perhaps the point here is (and I agree with you that it could be expressed a lot better than in that silly, overly familiar corney american style -well, they seem to like it) that the people that follow these religions and purport to teach what the founder taught are often claiming their concepts to be exclusive, accurate and to deny the others.

NONE of these things are God. As soon as you can desribe something as being God, you are wrong because God is beyond that and our puny understandings and concepts. This is why I believe Crowley wrote in his 'Rites of Man' document -Liber Oz, "There is no god but Man."

Every idea we have had about God has come from man.

Hey Cosmotaroist-

The Demiurge is a Gnostic concept. The Gnostics were a group of "heretical" Christians who had many beliefs that rubbed the so-called "true" Christians the wrong way - the belief that Jehovah was in actuality a satanic type of figure was one of them. DuQuette seems to be coming from a Gnostic viewpoint in his discussion of the 4 of Wands. Actually, many occult and magickal doctrines incorporate aspects of Gnosticism.

DuQuette's book has some interesting things to offer, but the thing that turned me off from the git-go was his attitude as self-appointed crusader against the "bad Christian boogie man."

Abrac

I found his attitude to be witty, and to be mostly in like with my own personal thoughts on the subject. In addition to being an enjoyable read, this entire book was also highly informative and really crystailzed alot of the various bits of information I had read to this point. I reccomend it highly to everyone, and I intend on picking up the rest of this mans work after reading it.

ravenest said:

Well, in a way he is right. One can show the western evolution of the concept of diety from a primative local god, through to an egomanic jealous god (I'd stick Jehovah at Geburah, not Kether), then all of a sudden THE God, through Juadism, Christianity and Islam to the God we 'understand' today. Read the old testament esp, Exodus, does that sound like God?
I think Jehovah is more a 4-square elemental explaination of how diety works, but that is Western Hermetic Qabalah and not 'religion' as such.



Somewhere around here (on a thread) recently I was trying to explain personally why I dont like Duquette, it's hard ... I just dont, its got something to do with his corneyness, overly chatty, down right sillyness at times (yet who am I to talk? ), just not my type of guy.




The OTO teaches respect for other religions (specifically relating to this question, in fact) within their initiation rites. So they are not to blame for his attitudes.

But I think one could broaden the perspective a bit. Whoever said Budda WAS God? Buddhists teach there IS NO god, nor a soul. Buddha would be spinning in his grave (if there was such a thing as the afterlife) if he knew people were interpreting his lifes work like this!

Perhaps the point here is (and I agree with you that it could be expressed a lot better than in that silly, overly familiar corney american style -well, they seem to like it) that the people that follow these religions and purport to teach what the founder taught are often claiming their concepts to be exclusive, accurate and to deny the others.

NONE of these things are God. As soon as you can desribe something as being God, you are wrong because God is beyond that and our puny understandings and concepts. This is why I believe Crowley wrote in his 'Rites of Man' document -Liber Oz, "There is no god but Man."

Every idea we have had about God has come from man.

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So where did men and women come from? the elements? or something else pershaps....

I would like to clarify that I was not asserting or contending the idea or even argue that any of the Budda , Jevhovah, Alah are gods, but I was illustrating the point that DuQuette was without substantiation dismissing the aforementioned "gods".

On the other point, I was not aruging whether or not DuQuette's knowledge was right or wrong but the essential point I was trying to convey was that "He should not based on his knowledge about the occult and then based on some of that, downplay and absolutely reject other beliefs based on his beliefs...

Its similar to saying that "If one is right (in his case the occultism that he affirms), the other explanations and worldviews are wrong)An anology would be, since A's theory is plausible, B-Z's are all implausible.

There no doubt that I learned a lot from his book, but, at the same time I might have appreciate his work better had his writting been less.....you know

Abrac said:

Hey Cosmotaroist-

The Demiurge is a Gnostic concept. The Gnostics were a group of "heretical" Christians who had many beliefs that rubbed the so-called "true" Christians the wrong way - the belief that Jehovah was in actuality a satanic type of figure being one of them. DuQuette seems to be coming from a Gnostic viewpoint in his discussion of the 4 of Wands. Actually, many occult and magickal doctrines incorporate aspects of Gnosticism.

DuQuette's book has some interesting things to offer, but the thing that turned me off from the git-go was his attitude as self-appointed crusader against the "bad Christian boogie man."

Abrac

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Thank you for the information about Gnostics...
I felt the same way you do (in your latter paragraph)
that is, I got similar impressions............

Personally, I very much liked his book. And I'm a very devout, life-long Christian.
Since the Thoth tarot is based on Kabbalah, and since he's explaining it in those terms, you just need to allow him to do that. JHVH isn't the name of *God Proper*; it's the name of him *as he acts through Chesed.* He's not saying that the Christian God isn't God; he's saying that the fullness of God isn't displayed under that name. When you read the Hebrew scriptures, you can see a difference in the way "The Lord" operates, and the way "God" does. We say it's the same being, but the kabbalists say that distinct names were used for a reason. I'm sure there are other "anti-religion" statements he's made, though I don't remember any right now. However, I didn't hear him speaking to people who are using the religion to grow, but rather to those who use it as an excuse not to think and to support their childish views.
As for Crowley being anti-christ, I think he was. ;-) It's hard to worship the Great Beast and the Whore of Babylon in a way that's at all pro-christian.

WOW I can't leave this forum for a minute lol. Lots of interesting comments here. First off I've read DuQuette's book and I'd have to say I thought over all it wasn't to bad. I'm sure I could have lived without it though. Even though it has a few decent chapters I hardly feel this book is a must for Thoth newbies. I've leaned as much if not more from the BOT. A final thought on DuQuette, I doubt I'll read any of his other books.

I think it's important to point out that Thoth tarot may also be considered a series of illustrations to The Book of The Law. This deck has everything to due with the new Aeon, it's prophet, and its Holy Books. I don't personally feel it is compatible with "Christianity" though. So in a sense it may be "antichrist", although I don't consider this a bad thing necessarily...

Wow all this bashing going on about his bashing. He is a thoroghly occult qabalist type guy. It is his book, and its FILLED with his opinions. As many of the books that we read on these subjects are. I've read two of his books and found both of them useful. You pick and choose what you want to take from books you read, you wont agree with all of it. Hell that is typical of any text, including the Bible/Torah/Talmud whatever. anyway thats my rants

Ven

Yes I acknowledge and agree that one can learn from a book even when there is 90% of things you do not appreciate and still learn from the rest of 10%.

One can learn Thoth without worshiping Crowley. Of course one can do so if one wants to....


Yet I think that there is an embedded "bad-christian" theme throughout the book implicity. I mean DuQuette's book of understanding.....