Question about Elemental dignities

Aun

Greetings,

After trying several RW based decks, I came to realize that Thoth is definitely my deck of choice.

I also found out that using elemental dignities and only upsides, gives me more accurate readings than using reversals.

I am using the large 15 card spread that is divided in sections of 3 cards, which makes easier to balance the elements in each section. However I am having a hard time interperting elemental dignities when trumps come to play.

Now I ask you: How do you analyse elemental dignities in a spread like the CC? Any suggestion for sites or articles on that? what about analysing ED with the Trumps?

Any light on these subjects is trully appreciated,

Blessings,
Aun
 

Macavity

My understanding is that you might use TWO basic types of elemental interaction. Firstly those between neighbouring cards and secondly (and optionally) between an individual card and it's elemental (positional) basis. If, as in various cross-based spreads, a card has no "near" card neighbours, then a card might be weighted by the interaction of it's own element against some predefined (positional-derived) elemental basis only. I suspect Paul Hughes-Barlow's site below has some ideas?

E.g. http://www.supertarot.co.uk/spread/spr.htm

One merit of E.D's seems to be the relative independence of readings from the (non-elemental) identity of ANY card? Simply evaluate the elemental interactions of majors, minors, courts as "equals", then weight whatever "meaning" you infer from the cards accordingly? ;)

With no particular expertise,

Macavity
 

matfav

elements

I use the 15 card spread and break the elements down to
wands cups swords pentacles
fire water air earth

Trumps are the element known as Spirit, your Soul - the Spark Of Life, your soul as represented by its journey through all the Major Arcana cards

The 22 MAJOR CARDS are known as Trump cards. Short for triumph, if you master the lessons that they represent.

Looking at all the elements Fire, Earth, Air ,Water and Spirit these are the elements that all the universe and life are made up of.

In a reading we look at the patterns of energy of the overall spread

15 card reading represents a 12 month cycle. the elemental breakdown in a reading shows the sub cycle of the energy the person has to deal with over a twelve month period.

Subltle influences Normal future

Present

Past External Energies

The past flows to the present and creates the future

Subltle influences acts as either a Alternative future or a subltle ongoing influence

External Energies is pretty much Beyond control, environmental, external events

The pattern of energyof the overalll reading,

the elements
the cards
puts together a really good picture of what is going on in a persons life.

example

Example of a possible fifteen card elemental breakdown.

6 Trumps ............ Element Spirit
0 Cups ........ .... Element Water
4 Swords ......... ... Element Air
3 Wands ......... .. Element Fire
2 Pentacles...... .... Element Earth
--
15 Cards In Total

The elements can actually tie a reading together

Always add them up to make sure you haven't missed any. As you notice, in the example, the distribution is well balanced except in cups where we have none. So the person is gearing up for major changes (6 Trumps), has reasonable practicality (2 Pentacles), good intellectual ability (4 Swords), plenty of motivation and action (3 Wands).If the question was regarding decisions to be made, then it would be excellent, but notice the lack of cups.

This can indicate that the person needs to look to this area to bring it back to a balanced state. (0) Cups means emotional suppression and a lack of love expressed. This does not mean that the person is unemotional nor does it mean that they do not have any feelings, but simply shows the trend over the coming months would be to avoid getting in contact with their emotions and relationships with people. You could talk about this with the person and gently work out a strategy that will guide them back to expressing there feelings in relationships when they are ready.

All this information is gained before the actual reading has begun and can show underlying factors that may not obviously be apparent. Always let the cards show you HOW, WHY, WHERE AND WHEN.

Court Cards

The court cards as we know represent people, in ancient days they were assigned this way;

King = Man
Queen = Woman
Knight = Young Man
Page = Children Of Either Sex

Now that was during the dark ages when most people lived to about 30 and young women were married off early in life. There was no grouping of cards to represent young women.

In our modern world where we live much longer and where either sex has equal importance, the assigned designation is as follows;

King = Man
Queen = Woman
Knight = Teenage Boy
Page = Teenage Girl

When no teenage boys or girls are present then pages can represent children under the age of 13 of either sex.

Thoth cards are NEVER mean't to be read upsidedown
the keywords "lock" the card, so you have to look at patterns of energy within the spread.

matfav
 

Nevada

I don't use reversals with Thoth, and...

Macavity said:
then a card might be weighted by the interaction of it's own element against some predefined (positional-derived) elemental basis only.

I agree! If I'm doing a Body, Mind, Spirit reading and the card for the Spirit position is a disk card, then I know that has some significance in its lack of spiritual connotations. It could be seen as something that supports interaction with spirit, or a need to take care of the body or finances first. If it's a trump card, then I know we're cookin'!

I've begun using reversals with most decks, but *not with Crowley-Thoth*, and I don't think I ever will. IMO, it's a deck much more suited to elemental dignities.

I also consider what elements are missing or underrepresented. Sometimes the answer lies in what's not there.

The things I consider when using elemental dignities with Thoth are:
1. What's beside it or near it?
2. What's its position?
3. What's missing?
 

Aun

First of all, thank you all for your precious inputs.

Macavity said:
One merit of E.D's seems to be the relative independence of readings from the (non-elemental) identity of ANY card? Simply evaluate the elemental interactions of majors, minors, courts as "equals", then weight whatever "meaning" you infer from the cards accordingly? ;)

Now, Matfav states that the element of the Majors is "spirit" and that makes a lot of sense to me. Before realizing this, I was wondering if I could relate to the element associated to the astrological sign - or planet - of each trump instead. What do you think of that?

Also, regarding the court cards, dont they have an extra weight due to their 'double' elemental attribution in some cases? take the Knight of Wands (The Fiery part of Fire) for example... isnt thisa card that has a bigger influence on the element balancing?

Cheers,
Aun
 

Macavity

Good question!

The Majors do, by convention, have plain ordinary earth, air, fire and water element attributes, e.g. as documented by Crowley in the book of Thoth(?)... and anyway Book 777. (I can't find a nice simple link for those now) Some authors (e.g. Haindl) indicate these on the cards themselves! There are also theories that bring in the fifth element of Akasa or Spirit, both for cards and positions. Some use ALL Majors = Spirit? Some use a Kaballistic motivation for more selective/complex assignments, as discussed in: http://www.supertarot.co.uk/ed/edspirit.htm

Another good question is indeed how to treat courts! I think I have tried to follow PHB (above) and just used ALL Wands = Fire etc. throughout the courts etc., but ISTR I have seen folk introduce math(s) that goes down to proportions such as Queen of Wands = x/16 fire + y/16 water + z/16 ... etc. What are x, y and z? Well, if someone knows a simple (memorable!) algorithm? ;)

There are also two (minorly) competing theories of how elements interact. Some have friend, enemy and neutral. Some just friend and enemy. Some also active and passive. I've yet to see this implemented TOTALLY convincingly? Indeed, how DOES one introduced Spirit into this scheme - Friend or Foe? })

Clearly it gets complicated! It would be nice e.g. to use a full five element theory with known interactions between each card and the positional base. I'm sure, with a computer at hand, one could even do it on the fly? I just sense most people seem to use dignities where they add NOTABLE content, and by... intuition, rather than get too bogged down with the (albeit potentially fun!) hardcore math(s)? :D

Macavity
 

Aun

Thanks Macavity,

You gave me (more than) enough information to medidate upon.
Once more, we return to that point where we have to use our intuition and stick with a pattern that we feel is the right one. Personally, I respect and try to follow the theories as much as I can, but I believe the cards also respect my limitations, and they end up speaking to me on a level that is within my capacities... and it has been working well so far :)

Best Regards,
Aun