Static versus Dynamic prediction?

Macavity

Here's a basic lay-question, that has been prompted by some of these discussions on the use of astrological "correspondances" within Tarot.

With no particular knowledge of astrology, it appears to me that the predictive and "characterising" ideas from e.g. a Birth Chart are fairly immutable? I vaguely recollect a book which discussed (perhaps?) one essential difference between astrology compared to Tarot, Runes... was the dynamic nature of the latter - the iteractions with the querent (question) etc. Simply, a reading could differ from one spread to the next. (N.B. This latter statement is perhaps not strictly true from a Tarotist viewpoint!) BUT how "dynamic" - Or indeed "static" is astrology? Would a "static" (reproducible!) reading indeed be a virtue? Is this the essential difference compared to other divinatory methods? ;)

Macavity (perhaps not explaining this too well, but...)
 

dadsnook2000

Some question !

This is really a deep question. Lets first look at how an astrological chart (natal) might be read. If the chart is seen as a static picture representing a person, you might get a "set" or "typical" interpretation that would be similar when articulated by a group of astrologers. Then, again, you might not. If the chart is seen as a point in time (within a changing universal pattern) when someone chose to emerge into reality, then you would have to look at a myrid of cycles -- among which the person would have an opportunity to play various roles. The complexity of interaction between how a new-moon person would work with a Jupiter-Saturn opposition or a Mercury-Venus conjunction would be subject to both internal and external variations. It is likely that every astrologer in a group of astrologers would need to verbally interact with the chart's subject to formulate an appropriate set of guidelines and advice. Another item to consider is that astrological charts are not bound by time -- you can do a chart for two years hence -- while tarot readings seem best suited to "now" and "possibilities." Also, astrology charts are capable of accurate "timing" of emerging events -- tarot is not as well suited to determining timing.
*** On the other hand, tarot readings do not require a timed event of some kind as a basis for reading. Tarot readings can more easily address specific questions -- while astrology charts do not as easily lend themselves to yes-no or very narrow answers to many questions.
*** As far as interaction goes, both Tarot readings and Astrological readings can be greatly enhanced by an honest and open sharing between the reader and querent. But, IMHO, both systems approach a question or issue differently: Tarot addresses the specific question and supporting environment, while Astrology paints a whole picture within a time period and requires a movement down toward the specifics -- the chart can become less precise (in some cases) as one moves to the specifics unless addition charts and techniques are applied. This is opposite of the Tarot spread where the specific is laid out and one must move up and out toward greater views (in some cases).
*** Does this help you? Dave.
 

isthmus nekoi

Wow, yes deep question...

Well, the most static part I think about astrology is the planets' positions in a birthchart. Nothing changes that. There is nothing *that* permanent in Tarot, even signifiers will change over time. But it's the permanance that gives astrology its special knack for timing.

I think a huge difference though is yeah, related to maybe not dynamism, but mutability. The dif b/w tarot and astrology (and other systems for that matter, like kaballah etc) is that astrology has a very definite structure, whereas you can totally junk the structure of tarot and it's still readable (ie. if you ignored the numbers on the majors, or read w/only the pips for example). You can even junk the traditional tarot meanings and it can work (sometimes you *have* to junk the meanings to make it work!), but I don't think that would work w/astrology, although the meanings do change somewhat over time. ie. traditionally Saturn was the big bad, and now he's the 'teacher'. Somehow, I don't think astrologers will ever read him in the chart as 'the nice guy' though :p
 

Macavity

Thank you both for your thoughts on this question. I think it has emphasised, to me anyway, the diverse possibilities of astrology, which I perhaps had not previously considered. I had tended, previously, to think in terms of static birth charts and clearly the time aspect is particularly important to astrology. I only wish there was more of that commodity available to study such things ;)

Macavity
 

dadsnook2000

Cat avatar

I like the new cat avatar. Dave
 

Moongold

Macavity is a Cat.

I was going to say, Macavity, that you would take to astrology like a duck to water.

I know some cats who are excellent swimmers :)
 

Macavity

Well, I'm sure so... ;)

At the moment, I just work from my "Keywords for Astrology" Banzhaf-Haebler book. I think I just look for a few ideas on e.g. Thoth minor associations, but then noticed that e.g. the GD system didn't use all conceivable astrological possibilities... Hmmm. Now there's a thread maybe?

"Van" Macavity - the swimming cat... })
 

dadsnook2000

How do you fit it all in?

By the time you use the planets, signs, houses and aspects -- each alone, nevermind in combination -- you have a lot of stuff to choose from in matching astrology to tarot or any other system. The reverse is true also -- cards, reversals, spreads, position and combinations -- the numbers alone or in combination are simply mind blowing. Each system has its own characteristics and structure. The best we can do is recognize -- to the extent that we find meaning and benefit -- some of the symbology as either a memory aid or an interpretive aid. AND, we have to try to prevent ourselves from going crazy trying to achieve an answer where there is only ambiguity with a little truth inside of it. Dave.
 

Minderwiz

There are many branches of Astrology - at the lowest level there is horary and event charts. Horary does come very close to the Tarot reading in the sense of providing an 'answer' to a specific question raised at a specific time. It also may involve an interaction between querent and Astrologer.

Natal Astrology is more complex - looking at a timespan of a whole life. The issue here is more is what is in the chart predetermined and nothing can change it, or is there room for the querent to change the outcomes. As has been said, several Astrologer reading the same chart may come to different conclusions (just as several Tarot readers might come to different conclusions) but, for the moment assuming that it were possible to come to one agreed conclusion, the chart reading is still not static.

For me, the chart shows the potential of the indvidual and much of the character that they bring into this life in order to attempt to fulfill that potential. However the chart does not show everything - it is an overview. It is quite possible for people with extremely similar charts, born in say the same hospital at virtually the same time to follow different life paths. In part this may be for social reasons - a child of rich parents will likely have a different life path than a child born to poor parents. In part the life path will also differ because the individuals may respond differently to their challenges - a 'hard' aspect from Saturn may lead one to give up and to take the attitude that nothing goes their way - the other may respond by trying harder. The same aspect may also manifest in different ways between different people.

Also people interact with each other - who we work with, who we befriend, who we marry, will all have an influence on how we use our potential. Indeed consulting an Astrologer and having our transits and progressions read may influence the way in which we try to reach our potential.