Impact of PCS on the RWS deck (split from: I don't think I could go back to Rider Wai

Teheuti

Well Waite did follow 'the' secret tradition ... he just Waitised it and obscured it when he 'struck out on his own' - and developed his own take on it, mixed up with his other stuff (that we talked about before and there is a thread here on the many influences that 'made the man').

Nowadays its relatively simple to track the 'sexual end' of this particular tradition of western esoteric tradition ;

G. D. < German Order of the Gold and Rosy Cross < Order of the Asiatic Brethren ('Masonic') < Frankism < Sabbateanism ('Kabbalistic') .

another branch was what Crowley was working ( as well as his G.D. / A. A. 'inheritance' )


O.T.O. < Hermetic Brotherhood of Light / Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor * < Order of Asiatic Brethren

This tradition focused more (than the G.D. did) on the male female partnership aspect ; the 'active Shekinah' and produced the first 'western tantrics' * ; P. B Randolph, Max Theon, The HBL 'upper members' ... even Blavatsky in her 'pre-India days'. Their early work was associated with Women's suffrage, sexual rights (and rites ) , and for the purpose of securing the family and producing advanced children (the 'divine child without' ) , this later started being used as a practice for other ends , and (any other usage) caused a great new split ... into a type of 'left handed tantra'.

http://www.theomagica.com/on-the-occult-order-of-the-asiatic-brethren/
I realize after reading the site you mention that I don't understand your point here other than that Waite "waitised" a Secret Tradition that came before him—true. Isn't that what I said, too? Are you suggesting that to understand the RWS deck better that we would be better served to go to another source of information on the Secret Tradtion? Or are you simply saying that Waite said nothing new but only "obscured" what is crystal clear in other sources? If the link is meant to be a document that would clarify the specific references and symbolism in the RWS deck then I don't see how - although the site is fascinating in its own right. Nor do I see any reference to Pixie's influence on the deck.
 

Teheuti

What I propose is that Pixie drew the Greater Arcana symbolism based on Waite's "waitised" direct instruction and and via his Fellowship - not from her own knowledge of a Secret Tradition (or coming from any of the groups mentioned by ravenest). And that it is necessary to understand this "waitised" version of the Secret Tradition if one is to understand WHY certain symbols were selected to appear on the cards of the RWS Greater Arcana.

Added: My statement does not invalidate in any way an individual's right to come to some personal sense of the images and cards for themselves, or for people to find meaningful parallels among archetypal or esoteric symbols that have nothing to do with Waite's or Pixie's intentions.
 

Essence of Winter

The illustrations in the pips are based on the 36 astrological decans described in the Picatrix and refined in Book T, a document to which PCS did not have access. Waite did have access to the book, and described the ideas behind the illustrations to PCS, who executed them masterfully.

The so-called "RWS meanings" given in The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, are a collection of "traditional meanings," not necessarily Waite's, which are not always consistent with the illustrations. I have gone into this in detail elsewhere, so I don't want to do it again. You don't have to take my word for it, but I am right nevertheless. :D

I'm familiar with the following associations:

http://goddessmoontarot.com/tarot-astrology-associations/

I can see where the Deacons come into play but how were the planets chosen such that there is Mars in Aries, Sun in Aries, Venus in Aries &c?
 

Michael Sternbach

I can see where the Deacons come into play but how were the planets chosen such that there is Mars in Aries, Sun in Aries, Venus in Aries &c?

This particular system of planetary attributions to the decans is based on the Chaldean order of the planets according to their speed as observed from Earth. Thus, from the slowest to the fastest, the series Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon is repeated over and over throughout the zodiac. However, 36 is not neatly dividable by 7, so Mars rules both the last decan of Pisces and the subsequent first decan of Aries, the rationale being that the first decan of Aries marks the commencement of spring, and Mars is the the planet of new beginnings.

The oldest known source for this system is Teucros the Babylonian who probably lived in the first century CE.
 

Michael Sternbach

What I propose is that Pixie drew the Greater Arcana symbolism based on Waite's "waitised" direct instruction and and via his Fellowship - not from her own knowledge of a Secret Tradition (or coming from any of the groups mentioned by ravenest). And that it is necessary to understand this "waitised" version of the Secret Tradition if one is to understand WHY certain symbols were selected to appear on the cards of the RWS Greater Arcana.

Added: My statement does not invalidate in any way an individual's right to come to some personal sense of the images and cards for themselves, or for people to find meaningful parallels among archetypal or esoteric symbols that have nothing to do with Waite's or Pixie's intentions.

The Secret Tradition that Waite refers to is, in my understanding, the totality of Hermetic and Masonic knowledge that, according to an ancient belief, was bestowed on mankind from a highly advanced civilization that existed in a Golden Age in times immemorial. A knowledge that is all-encompassing, but got fragmented and obscured in transmission. It was the Golden Dawn's endeavour to restore it to its original unified form.

What were Waite's sources? Everything that he studied! (And that includes quite a lot.) As far as the GD is concerned, the most immediate source of information is the Cipher MS whose authorship is still a matter of debate. One of the theories being that it stems from the German "Orden der Gold- und Rosenkreuzer" which Ravenest refers to.
 

Richard

I'm familiar with the following associations:

http://goddessmoontarot.com/tarot-astrology-associations/

I can see where the Deacons come into play but how were the planets chosen such that there is Mars in Aries, Sun in Aries, Venus in Aries &c?

The matter came up in an earlier thread.

As Barleywine said, they are the classical planetary assignments of western astrology. You can find them in The Book of Thoth, Book T, Liber Theta, and numerous classical sources, a number of which are compiled in Scion's Guide to the Decans, which is my goto for decan information.

The structure is so simple that brute memorization is unnecessary. Starting with the first decan of Aries, the planets just cycle over and over through the order: Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter. (If you start with the first decan as Saturn in Leo, you have to watch out for the stutter at the vernal equinox, where Mars gets repeated.)
 

Richard

Well, this post by Tali Goodwin is certainly interesting, in more ways than one. Note especially the final sentence of this quote.

Hello All

Thank you so much for your interest in the book [Secrets of the Waite-Smith Tarot by Katz & Goodwin]. We have spent several years researching it and invested several thousand pounds in acquiring licenses to publish new photographs of Pamela, her life, work and the sources of many of her tarot images.

The research took place in archives, private collections and museums worldwide, with site visits and new discoveries on the design and intent of the whole deck. Without giving too much away, I think we demonstrate clearly and without question, to put the whole matter to rest, that Pamela designed the Minors by herself at the very least.......
 

Teheuti

The Secret Tradition that Waite refers to is, in my understanding, the totality of Hermetic and Masonic knowledge that, according to an ancient belief, was bestowed on mankind from a highly advanced civilization that existed in a Golden Age in times immemorial. A knowledge that is all-encompassing, but got fragmented and obscured in transmission.
Good explanation, although as Waite saw it, it was from "time immemorial." Each manifestation - like the Hermetic or the Masonic only expressed a piece of the Tradition. He, as well as Madame Blavatsky were the ones who were trying to piece it back together, each in their own way.

It was the Golden Dawn's endeavour to restore it to its original unified form.
Not really. They were more magical pragmatists than that, content to use the most workable remnants of that Tradition - the correspondences - to travel the higher planes, effect change through them, and converse with their Holy Guardian Angel. This is, in part, what frustrated Waite so much.

What were Waite's sources? Everything that he studied! (And that includes quite a lot.)
His friends said that he had a photographic memory. As a result, part of the awkwardness of some of this statements in PKT is that there are quotes from his favorite works deliberately sprinkled throughout the text - right in the middle of sentences - breadcrumbs to his deeper allusions.

As far as the GD is concerned, the most immediate source of information is the Cipher MS whose authorship is still a matter of debate. One of the theories being that it stems from the German "Orden der Gold- und Rosenkreuzer" which Ravenest refers to.
It has almost conclusively been shown that the author of the Cipher Manuscript was Kenneth MacKenzie. MacKenzie was German educated, a professional German translator and classicist (among other things), and an inveterate creator of magical orders and rituals (including rituals for the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia and co-creation of the Society of Eight). His magical name was Cryptonomous (spelling?), and he was known to favor the Trithemius code used in the cipher manuscript. He was initiated into some German magical orders, spent time visiting with Eliphas Lévi in order to work out the secrets of the Tarot (he published an article about his first visit), and he wrote Westcott (who was seeking to learn more about MacKenzie's Tarot material) that he could not publish his book, The Tarot: Archeologically and Symbolically Considered, as it was "too dangerous" to be made public. Furthermore, upon MacKenzie's death in 1886 Westcott (some say Woodford) went immediately to his home where he obtained papers from MacKenzie's widow. The widow was later made a member of the GD although there is no record of her attending anything.
 

Teheuti

I've seen an early manuscript of Marcus and Tali's book, which I believe conclusively shows some of the personal and pictorial sources of the Minors - the "image files" from which Pixie Smith drew. Also, she was on her own for much of the time that she was producing the art. There's no question but that the Minor Arcana images were adapted from her life (and we can thank Marcus and Tali for the specifics), but that doesn't mean she wasn't also following material given or told to her by Waite.

Frustrated by others who didn't "get" him, William Butler Yeats had Pixie do a sketch for a set design for one of his plays. He stated that she seemed to know what was exactly in his mind. When she painted a scene while listening to the music played by Debussy, Debussy himself stated that she drew exactly what he saw when he was creating the piece. She was called "abnormally talented" referring to her psychic abilities and synesthesia.
 

ravenest

As far as the GD is concerned, the most immediate source of information is the Cipher MS whose authorship is still a matter of debate. One of the theories being that it stems from the German "Orden der Gold- und Rosenkreuzer" which Ravenest refers to.

Theories .... ideas ... evidence ... claims ....

regardless of origins and shenanigans the GD has reconnected to the GOGRC and re-made the link of 'continuation' ;

" The mystic numbers, mystic titles, symbols, etc. of each grade of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and of the RR+AC were as well taken directly from the Gold und Rosenkreutz Order. Our order's archives contain the entire esoteric corpus of this essential Rosicrucian order. Indeed, Gold und Rosenkreutz corpus has become a key element in the RR+AC's reformed curriculum since the general reformation of the order in 1999. "

http://www.golden-dawn.com/eu/displaycontent.aspx?pageid=112-gold-rosenkreutz-order

Kenneth Mackenzi was a translator of German ( as well as French, Latin, Greek, and Hebrew - great combo for an occultist ), knew Paschal Beverly Randolph , claimed to have been initiated into a German Rosicrucian fraternity when he lived in Vienna, claimed ( and believed by others including Robert Wentworth Little and Westcott) he had the “authority” to found the new, “authentic” esoteric society .

When the Cipher Manuscripts were obtained from Mackenzie’s wife they were in his hand , but that doesnt mean he made up the system. It could have been based on, and with permission from GOGRC, and then written in his hand in cypher.

Actually, it seems to me if he did have permission for transition and translation that is exactly what one would do; write it in code and one own's handwriting ( they didnt have computers back then .... one was rather restricted to handwriting ;) )

Wescott certainly agreed with this and believed Mackenzie’s had received permission to open, in Britain, an order that was said to have originated in Germany, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

At the time the German order may have been in the background, not wanting open association, but watching to see how the experiment worked out . The events of 1900 in the GD may indicate their wisdom in this .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_R._H._Mackenzie