Cultural Upbringing/Life Story often ignored when reading a celebrity's natal chart

Darth MI

In other astrology sites I stated repeatedly hundreds of times about Adolf Hitler, despite how the astrologers constantly try to spin his chart into a sadistic murderer, was not a psychopath. back during the 1930s and 40s there was nothing wrong with his racist worldview.

In fact Adolf Hitler was actually quite mellow during his time period. He personally never got a pistol and shot down Jews randomly and even helped Jews who he considered friends escape from Nazi Germany. Long before his rise in power, he had lots of Jewish friends in Vienna.

The fact is despite how people try to point out placements in his chart to explain how racist and bloodthirsty he is (I even seen one self-proclaimed veteran of astrology point out to Saturn in his 10th house to explain his "hatred of foreigners"), the average Westerner (NOTE:Westerner, not just German) actually applauded his vocal hatred of Jews and nonwhites. During Hitler's youth in Vienna, riots against Jews were already occurring and the local newspaper was putting slanders against the Jewish community. Even nations who suffered tremendously as a result of Nazi genocidal policy such as Poland and Ukraine had its citizens (who were being sent to camps and starving to death or being experimented in labs,etc) who supported the Nazis simply to kill Jews for the hell of it. The Nazis didn't even approach them, many soldiers in Ukraine happily volunteered to shootdown Jews using Ukrainian resources for a targetting gallery.

If its saying something, Claus Von Stauffenberg, the man who attempted the most famous assassination operation against Hitler, believed Poles were so subhuman they deserved to be enslaved and despised Jews as not being "real Germans". Stauffenberg was actually more left-leaning than most in the Nazi party at the time and he made such statements before he even got affiliated with the Nazis personally.

So this is one thing I am interested in discussing about. I seen so many astrologers pull stuff out of nowhere to spin a natal chart so they match the schoolbook images of celebrity.

A most irritating example is Alexander of Macedonia who many astrologers rectify as having Aries Ascendant. We don't even know his birthday yet already astrologers had done rectification with a sure opinion, pointing out to his warmongering nature and aggressive personality that is prone to starting fights among his comrades and creating accidents like a fire that burned down a palace.

Thing is Alexander was the heir to the throne of a nation already known for its warlike tendencies. His father, Philip (who is praised as being a far more restrained man than Alexander was) spent his whole life fighting to unite Greece and even expected Alexander to increase his empire's territory. He would have been proud of all what Alexander accomplished in his life.

This is not even adding that Macedonia was situated in a rocky region where one had to be hardened merely to survive the environment and to add to the hassle intrusion from random warlike nomadic tribes were common. Every noble was expected to be hardened in war by the time they reach their late 20s and the nation was known for its citizenry who were among the finest citizen armies in Greece.

Even Greece as a whole was a warlike civilization. For Christ's sake, one of their most sacred religious celebration was the Olympics, an athletic contest often featuring sports heavily entwined with fighting such as javelin throwing. Ancient Athens, the most scholarly of the Greek cities, had a citizenship fit enough to march for miles in full armor and sports was considered an essential thing in a young Athenian man's education. Even the famous philosophers like Socrates were known to wrestle in the gyms and had fought in several battles in their life time.

When we take it all into account, Alexander's warmongering nature was a standard trait in the culture he was raised in so to automatically go with Aries ascendant is a slap in the face against that reality.

I really think astrologers are doing a terrible job by studying a chart in its isolation. When one studies celebrities like Hitler and George Washington, we must look at the standards of the time period and culture they were raised in.

The most famous example of course is Adolf Hitler who many astrologers repeatedly try to rectify his chart into Scorpio ascendant or if they use the Libra Asc chart, they try to nitpick specific placements like Saturn in 10th house as proof of his hatred towards foreigners and tendencies to blame foreigners for all his problems. Ignoring that millions of Germans in his time were doing the same and had been done so for centuries before Hitler was even born as seen in the mass riots against Jews in the Medieval Ages (who were not considered Germans but foreign outsiders; in some riots not even as humans but as children of Satan).

Just like Hitler shows, despite his portrayal as a sadistic heartless psychopath in modern media, there was nothing wrong with his racist dogmas back int he 30s and most Germans would have eagerly accepted his views of killing Jews even if it were espoused by some random nobody. The fact Hitler used resources to save some Jews he considered friends is enough to contradict giving Scorpio as his Ascendant.

To use another relatively recent example, for years people considered Megan Fox Scorpio Ascendant. When it was recently revealed by MEGAN FOX HERSELF that she was Leo ascendant, not Scorpio, in one other astrology forum I go to people began to try to rectify her chart as Scorpio Asc, saying her birth time was wrong, or even point out her facial features as being Scorpionic, not Leonine. Those who conceded the possibility of Megan being Leo then tried to point out at that she probably has Ascendant square Mars (despite the fact Megan didn't even reveal her full natal chart yet publicly at least at the time the discussion was happening).

I don't follow Megan Fox well enough to make a comment about her natal chart but she is a recent and legitimate example of how astrologers make assumption about celebrities despite not actually even reading a single biography summarizing her basic life story.

To use just as big an example is Osama Bin Ladin. We don't even know his true birth time as many biographers and CIA sources put contradicting information and we have yet to discover a birth certificate or see relatives admit his birth time. Not helping is the fact that the Islamic Calendar uses different months and dates from the Western Calendar.

Yet people are quick to point out that he is a Pisces Sun despite the fact we don't even have reliable information of what year he is born nevermind what month. All this is pointing to the fact that he "led" a holy war against the west and was a religious leader of Islam.

UUUUUHHHHHH Osama Bin Ladin was NOT AN IMAM (Islam's equivalent of priesthood). He never even studied in an Islamic university nor has witnesses admit another Imam tutored him in the ways of Islam. He doesn't even shown to have true understanding of Islam, all he's done before his death is cherrypick from the Koran verses to inspire the poor Arabs to fight the Westerners (but he completely ignored any quotes about peace or charity to the poor or fighting corruption in society).

Bin Ladin hasn't even been verified among Afghani Mujahedeen sources to have even step foot in Afghanistan; most Mujahedeen (including former leaders of the Taliban who really liked Bin Ladin) all state Bin Ladin was at best their main supplier of weapons but he has never actually been in a fire fight with the Soviets and it wouldn't surprise me if he never even shot an American soldier before.

This is not even counting that the country Bin Laden was born in is a THOECRACY that bans non Muslims from entering without a work visa and is so puritanical that one can go to jail for not attending the weekly Mosque meetings without a specific license and the local Saudi police is known to persecute even non-Muslim foreigners who got the necessary visas to enter the country.

The whole argument is automatically mute because we don't have his birth date but Bin Ladin is probably the best modern historical figure who exemplifies the cherrypicking by astrologers. Not only have they ignored the culture Bin Laden came from but they even ignore that Bin Laden is only one leader in the Islamic terrorism and there are many leaders who are arguably more fitting for a "Pisces Sun" chart.


What do you think?
 

dadsnook2000

Hitler

I have a Hitler chart based on 6:30 PM, April 20, 1889 with an Asc. of 26:41 Libra. Is this the same chart you have for his Braunau am Inn, Austria?
 

Minderwiz

That's the one I have too Dave. I have (using AstroApp) a Libra Ascendant at 24 degrees, but that's almost certainly because it uses CET rather than Local Mean Time, which would be the recorded time in those days.

The chart is almost certainly accurate to the rising sign. Using Whole Sign Houses (which is convenient for Rectification), the Ruler of the Ascendant, Venus, is in the eighth House of Death. And what is Hitler most remembered for - the deahts of millions.

Interestingly the ruler of his Descendant, and therefore the significator of his partner, Mars, is in partile conjunction with Venus, in the eighth. Hitler and Eva Braun died together in a suicide pact. One of his possible previous lovers, his neice, Geli Raubal also committed suicide.

He also has the ruler of the twelfth house of loss in the seventh - loss associated with partners.

The ruler of his tenth house, the Moon, is in the fourth place, which not only signifies home but homeland. Hitler made much of his claims to represent Germany and his political career was dedicated to his homeland of Greater Germany. The conjunction of Moon and the benefic of sect, Jupiter, shows how successful he was at that. That success was not unlimited though. Both Malefics afflict the Ruler of the Ascendant. And Saturn rules both Jupiter and the Moon (his significator of career) from its Detriment in Leo.

The chart fits the events of his life. Unlike Modern Astrology, Hellenistic Astrology and much of the tradition does not see the chart as showing permanent ever-present condtions but indicates discrete event that are likely to occur. So none of the above assumes anything about Hitler's psychology or the acceptability or not of his views. It simply shows that the Libra chart is correct and doesn't need any 'twisting' to see that it fits Hitler's life.

Edited to add:

I've now had chance to check with Solar Fire, which does allow for Local Mean Time and it confirms the 26 Libra Ascendant for this time and date.

I've also added a copy of the chart using Whole Sign Houses, as my post was reliant on them. Dave and others might prefer to add a Placidus version using the outers.

Extra edit: just amended the chart to the 'right' one LOL
 

Attachments

  • Adolf Hitler.jpg
    Adolf Hitler.jpg
    59.6 KB · Views: 125

Darth MI

That's the one I have too Dave. I have (using AstroApp) a Libra Ascendant at 24 degrees, but that's almost certainly because it uses CET rather than Local Mean Time, which would be the recorded time in those days.

The chart is almost certainly accurate to the rising sign. Using Whole Sign Houses (which is convenient for Rectification), the Ruler of the Ascendant, Venus, is in the eighth House of Death. And what is Hitler most remembered for - the deahts of millions.

Interestingly the ruler of his Descendant, and therefore the significator of his partner, Mars, is in partile conjunction with Venus, in the eighth. Hitler and Eva Braun died together in a suicide pact. One of his possible previous lovers, his neice, Geli Raubal also committed suicide.

He also has the ruler of the twelfth house of loss in the seventh - loss associated with partners.

The ruler of his tenth house, the Moon, is in the fourth place, which not only signifies home but homeland. Hitler made much of his claims to represent Germany and his political career was dedicated to his homeland of Greater Germany. The conjunction of Moon and the benefic of sect, Jupiter, shows how successful he was at that. That success was not unlimited though. Both Malefics afflict the Ruler of the Ascendant. And Saturn rules both Jupiter and the Moon (his significator of career) from its Detriment in Leo.

The chart fits the events of his life. Unlike Modern Astrology, Hellenistic Astrology and much of the tradition does not see the chart as showing permanent ever-present condtions but indicates discrete event that are likely to occur. So none of the above assumes anything about Hitler's psychology or the acceptability or not of his views. It simply shows that the Libra chart is correct and doesn't need any 'twisting' to see that it fits Hitler's life.

Edited to add:

I've now had chance to check with Solar Fire, which does allow for Local Mean Time and it confirms the 26 Libra Ascendant for this time and date.

I've also added a copy of the chart using Whole Sign Houses, as my post was reliant on them. Dave and others might prefer to add a Placidus version using the outers.

Extra edit: just amended the chart to the 'right' one LOL


I posted the chart i used in another post so look in that one for references.

I have a definie problem with the 8th house and referencing to the Holocaust as Hitler's most famed work. To cut to the chase without referencing books and documentaries, Hitler was hardly alone in taking sadistic pleasure of killing Jews. It was a social norm in Germany especially in this time period to hate Jews to the point cheering at seeing them gunned down was actually considered admirable.

To delve into alternate history and German cultural studies, it is accepted among scholars of German culture and World War 2 historians that Hitler was merely a symptom of the problem and if he wasn't elected, other leaders just as cruel as he was would probably have taken over and genocide commences. Making History by Stephen Fry and other alternate history novels goes into this in details with even far WORSE people coming into power at the assumption Hitler never became a politician. The best case scenario would be Jews encamped into cities away from the rest of society and even here there would still be killings of Jews due to the harsh economic times and terrible antisemitism that existed during this time.

Supposed Germany had won the war, how would the 8th house Taurus chart fare with interpretations? Especially Venus in 8th house?

This basically represents the core message my opening post in this thread is all about.

BUt I'llt take a look at your chart link and read it later.
 

Minderwiz

Darth MI said:
I have a definie problem with the 8th house and referencing to the Holocaust as Hitler's most famed work. To cut to the chase without referencing books and documentaries, Hitler was hardly alone in taking sadistic pleasure of killing Jews. It was a social norm in Germany especially in this time period to hate Jews to the point cheering at seeing them gunned down was actually considered admirable.

What I actually said was:

Minderwiz said:
The chart is almost certainly accurate to the rising sign. Using Whole Sign Houses (which is convenient for Rectification), the Ruler of the Ascendant, Venus, is in the eighth House of Death. And what is Hitler most remembered for - the deaths of millions.

Remembered does not imply causality, nor did I mention the holocaust specifically. Wallace Hartley is remembered for playing Nearer my God to thee as the Titanic sank. That does not mean he caused the Titanic to sink nor was he actively involved in its sinking (and it's not certain that he played the tune he was remembered for at that time). My statement is true, Hitler is remembered for the deaths of millions, through war and, as you mentioned it, the holocaust, whether or not he directly or indirectly caused them. There's a difference between Traditional Astrology which concentrates more on events and Modern Astrology which concentrates more on psychological factors, including but not exclusively motivation and behavioural cause.

Darth MI said:
To delve into alternate history and German cultural studies, it is accepted among scholars of German culture and World War 2 historians that Hitler was merely a symptom of the problem and if he wasn't elected, other leaders just as cruel as he was would probably have taken over and genocide commences. Making History by Stephen Fry and other alternate history novels goes into this in details with even far WORSE people coming into power at the assumption Hitler never became a politician. The best case scenario would be Jews encamped into cities away from the rest of society and even here there would still be killings of Jews due to the harsh economic times and terrible antisemitism that existed during this time.

You are creating straw men here. I did not say that Hitler caused anti-semitism, nor that he was alone as an 'extremist'. However he did exploit it, just as others, such as Stalin, exploited real or supposed ethnic grievances or Milosevic and Karadzic exploited traditional grievances and rivalries. They did not act alone, and I'm sure that if they did not do it, someone else would but that is not a justification or excuse for their behaviour.

Dart MI said:
Supposed Germany had won the war, how would the 8th house Taurus chart fare with interpretations? Especially Venus in 8th house?

Suppose Hitler had been born a couple of earlier and had a Virgo Ascendant, or later and had a Scorpio Ascendant - he wasn't and they didn't (win the war). What we can really only deal with is what actually happened to a man with this chart. He had a lover who committed suicide and a mistress who committed suicide and he's remembered for a strong association with death.

I would point out though that victory doesn't necessarily equal vindication or a different judgement. Tony Blair's reputation as a politician was largely destroyed (certainly in the UK) by the Iraq war, a war which led to total military victory. Incidentally Tony Blair has Capricorn for his eighth Whole Sign House, and in that house lies the MC, which is in a reasonably close square with its ruler Saturn and Mars on his Ascendant. Now these planets and placements can have several interpretations and can mean different things at different stages of life (though linked to the natural signification of the planet) but there are indications of a link to a public perception of Blair linked with death. That would not be the case up till around 2003 but it has become a feature since. Life is not over till it's over, and a person's life may be associated with different things at different stages.
 

lightsofblue

Which is it? Are you saying that cultural upbringing and life story is or is not considered when reading the chart of famous and infamous persons?

In my observation the history of these characters are used to illustrate aspects of a chart, and to predict future events. They are considered thoroughly!

Your bias towards Hitler as a wonderful guy is misleading for me when you say that his history is overlooked, and Alexander of Macedonia's is overestimated. In what respect are Alexander the Great's accomplishments not reflecting the birth chart we don't have...and in what way is Hitler's chart being treated different to this? The title of your post is claiming that biography isn't emphasized well enough to properly interpret a chart? Is that right? Then you're evidencing with the argument that Alexander and Osama have had astrological guesses as to what their charts could look like, based on their histories. I can't follow that.

"Alexander's warmongering nature was a standard trait in the culture he was raised in so to automatically go with Aries ascendant is a slap in the face against that reality."

Actually in 'myth' it wasn't a standard trait. It was an exceptional trait. i.e. "The Great." He was a tactical genius which is a cosmic blessing in and of itself, that heralds the praise commensurate to other victorious leaders - regardless of their character. And Alexander had plenty of character. Phillip II is praised for his effortless diplomacy in all ways of life. His son is remembered for his bravery, willpower, ambition, intelligence, charisma, and humor(--Gordian Knot). He faced things head on, a trait that is attributed to Aries. Why is this irritating? Hitler was a powerful orator, as he is credited with for the cause of brief victories and brainwashing, but there are no other enviable qualities to speak of. His mission was similar to any common pest exterminator. There is a reason he was knocked off the chess board by greater powers... that's why we don't study him with the reverence you speak of.

Also something to point out...I think you're looking at these facts in a very inhumane way. It's not about wins and losses. What about the uniquely savage genocide of 6 million people? Holy smokes, that is an unparalleled tragedy!! There is something morally unsound with his vision, which is why there were so many dissenters. A moral disgrace. If you see it differently then you will have a different interpretation to many many other birth charts, not just this one. As Minderwiz pointed out, the ends say nothing about the means. And Astrology of a man/woman focuses on the means- the energies that arrive that cause a person to act or be a certain way.

Perhaps this isn't what you're getting at, but it's coming off more like a ranting panegyric comparing 3 warlords at various levels of infamy, in an attempt to prove that Hitler wasn't so bad. So sorry but the only thing fun about him was his mustache. If you can clear up how this is about astrology with one linear argument, then there might be a better conversation ahead.

Finally, I would say Osama Bin Laden might be a Pisces because of the Whitney Houston thing (laughinggg). That and the 'holy war.'
 

Minderwiz

I tend to agree with you because it took me a couple of readings to get the gist of what was being said and I'm not sure that my interpretataion is correct. It appears more an attack on Astrologers for either intepreting charts out of cultural context or for attributing characteristics that cannot be verified because we don't have the relevant natal data.

I happen to agree with the point that Astrological information should not be made up to fit a perceived personality and if that's what the thread was intended to explore then that's fine. However there's not much more that one can say other than anyone shown to be doing it should be censured. We can't explore non-existent charts.

I did take up the Hitler chart because it is a reliable one which seems to be recorded by authorities at the time. How it is interpreted is a valid issue for discussion but the references to Alexander the Great or Osama don't really get us far other than to disapprove of passing speculation off as fact (assuming that someone has actually done that, and there's no evidence presented that they have, only a claim that it has happened.)

As far as I can tell, Alexander was born on the 6th Day of Hecatombaeon, according to later classical sources. This was the first month of the year, theoretically starting on the first new moon after the summer's solstice. This could mean that Alexander was born on 20 July 356. Unfortunately, the astronomical, religious and civil calendars did not coincide in the fourth century; as a consequence, it is impossible to give the date of Alexander's birth. So we have a suggested but unconfirmed date and no time. So no chart is possible except by fabrication or by attempting to reconstruct one from recorded personality traits. I would certain agree that both of these should not be attempted, unless the words Pure Speculation are used to qualify it.

The same would go for other charts. However we come back to how far this can be taken. The message is keep to reliable charts and if you're going to speculate make it completely clear that that is what you are doing. I have found a speculative reconstruction by Anthony Louis

https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/the-birth-chart-of-alexander-the-great/

Which states clearly that it is a speculative exercise and allows an error range. I'm not sure how seriously I'd take this but seeing it's labelled as speculation I don't condemn it.
 

lightsofblue

Which states clearly that it is a speculative exercise and allows an error range. I'm not sure how seriously I'd take this but seeing it's labelled as speculation I don't condemn it.

@Minderwiz
I really enjoyed reading your post. Unique wealth of knowledge :))). Speculating is fun too, so thank you for posting the chart. I enjoyed looking through it, but really didn't agree with Louis' interpretations. I hear you that it's not just difficult but close to impossible to recreate a chart of a great historical figure. It just can't be done accurately and is most likely better left to psychics if attempted at all, since one would would be better able to intuit puzzle pieces about the person to achieve a closer understanding of their mental devices. I suppose that since these characters are extraordinary, they wouldn't behave/think/feel in the normative manner they inherit from their authors...leave that to Shakespeare :D.

One glaring indiscretion for me was "Alexander himself was in a committed gay relationship with Hephaistion, the love of his life." This seems to be a fairly new trend of dethroning and emasculating Alexander who was the consummate alpha male, in order to make him more approachable... It seems like Louis is using the hollyweird attempted portrayal of Alexander (he is really more of a Braveheart Mel Gibson than douchey Colin Farrell anyway).

Olympias was very attached to her son and would do the politicking on his behalf, describing to me a "mother's son," not a "mama's boy." A person who would refuse prostitutes at a young age and befriend a eunuch shows someone with an independent mind. I'd like to point out that a eunuch has no genitals. And then, wouldn't they deliver male prostitutes if that's what he preferred and if the trite belief being repeated claims that back then they only married women and had sexual partnerships with men? What would a strategist be thinking as far as his political future is concerned in bedding indiscriminate women? Alexander took 2 foreign marriages of his own accord and is famously quoted for his "frustration" (preference) for Persian women. I'd like to think of him as an Orientalist... and a spiritual person. A closer living comparison would be like an Old World Jim Morrison-another alpha male. "We chased our pleasures here, dug our treasures there."

With the kind of appetite Alexander had, we can assume he had his sights set far away. He is probably turning a tsunami in his grave. Most of my childhood we lived with my dad (mom and dad) and his best friend. My father passed away around the age of 40, and this friend held on to most of his belongings, being that they often exchanged and shared movies and had more shared interests. Volumes of collections, artwork, clothing, and heirlooms. If someone in the distant future were to look back it would be a crime to simplify this brotherly relationship to a homosexual one. When their dogs died they framed memorials for them. No one knows what a man looks like anymore. Guess what, they both liked Alexander the Great, if that explains why I feel so incited. He was a paragon, someone to talk about, a role model when people used to have those.

Nothing wrong with a gay hero, there is Achilles, as is written. Just not this one. Sometimes the legendary exist because they were unsurpassed in a lofty archetype. I can't imagine that in all the lengths of history that there wouldn't be even 1 man of such masculine stature.

I realize you said you view Louis' chart of ATG as an exercise, so this is not a complaint against you, just wanted to expand on why the phony charts can be so ineffective. We are missing history, psychology, motivation, and accurate description at the outset. I think this is probably the most fascinating character to attempt, but probably also the most complicated to unfold. :) I still stand by Aries in the nutshell...if only to better understand Aries/Mars influences.