New at Trionfi.com

Huck

Lady Iron Side said:
I find this very interesting as it closely resemble the Cary Yale - Prudence/Charity card but fliped, curious here as to what she is holding in her other hand. not the one that is holding the mirror. I also see that one of her breast is showing as well, this is depicted on the Cary Yale card. I'm wandering what the placement of this card is, is it before XI or after?

Charity/Prudence card Cary Yale http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i460/IronSideArt/Cary Yale deck/CharityPrudence.jpg

any thoughts Huck

It's from a Minchiate deck and the Minchiate decks have Prudence as Nr. 17.

The Minchiate also has a Charity card.

A mixing of Charity and Prudentia isn't known (afaik) ... Prudentia was occasionally mixed with (or presented as) Fame or World.

Prudentia
d0511317.jpg


Charity
d0511319.jpg


Typical for Florentine virtues is the octagonal halo.
 

Lady Iron Side

Huck said:
It's from a Minchiate deck and the Minchiate decks have Prudence as Nr. 17.

The Minchiate also has a Charity card.

A mixing of Charity and Prudentia isn't known (afaik) ... Prudentia was occasionally mixed with (or presented as) Fame or World.

Prudentia
d0511317.jpg


Charity
d0511319.jpg


Typical for Florentine virtues is the octagonal halo.

Thanks a whole bunch, you just confirmed what my intuition has been screaming at me. S. Kaplan states that the Card I just showed, is Charity, I have never agreed with it being Charity, I have always seen this card as Prudence, and with Prudence she is link to both Wheel of Fortune and as you said above The World. Thank you for this verification. and so you know I am not mixing them, I just type it like this Charity/Prudence = S.Kaplan/Lady Ironside, he see as charity, I see it as Prudence there when I am referenceing this card so others know which one I'm talking about I state charity then what I call it ( prudence )...lol

Here is a my Quote from another thread.

Lady Iron Side said:
Edit 2: Magician ? for the Number 1. Mystical tradition, absolute Unity is synonymous with God the infinite = World Card. again this would also be in the Pythagorean tetraktys 0. Which then leaves 11 majors = 7 + 4, out of 12 cards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem
http://users.ucom.net/~vegan/tetraktys.htm

Empress / Emperor = Intangible world

Temperance - Pagan Virtue adopted by the Christians, there not tried to astrology necessarily. (therefore these may not have a planet associated with them) which goes back to my other thread - 7 planets, 4 elements, 4 seasons. these virtues could represent the 4).

Prudence - sometimes received a serpent for Christ.

So we could just for fun say that the Cary Yale is maybe missing the Charity Card...lol Unless the Card in the Cary Yale - HOPE which depicts the Sun Symbol in the top right corner is really Charity. for the Sun represents Fire

Lady Iron side said:
Another note: the Hope card has a huge dicrepency in it, everyone thinks is a star, well I hate to burst that bubble it is NO STAR it is the sun symbol, there is a another big clue if you pay attention to the back ground of all the cards. Stuart kaplan clearly state that the background is made up of Sun bursts, so when you take that closer look you will see that it is a SUN. the Egyptians worshiped the Sun God.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i460/IronSideArt/Cary Yale deck/HopeSunSymbol.jpg
 

Huck

Thanks a whole bunch, you just confirmed what my intuition has been screaming at me. S. Kaplan states that the Card I just showed, is Charity, I have never agreed with it being Charity, I have always seen this card as Prudence, and with Prudence she is link to both Wheel of Fortune and as you said above The World. Thank you for this verification. and so you know I am not mixing them, I just type it like this Charity/Prudence = S.Kaplan/Lady Ironside, he see as charity, I see it as Prudence there when I am referenceing this card so others know which one I'm talking about I state charity then what I call it ( prudence )...lol

6a00e553bc5256883401156f8176b9970c-800wi


Sorry, I think, you confuse my arguments or maybe I was not clear ... Caritas nursing a child is a common picture ... as Kaplan presented it.
Caritas has nothing to do with Prudentia.

Prudentia is occasionally presented as or mixed with Fame and World, not Fortune.

7 virtues ... very big
http://www.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/winter2009/images/features/photoessay/07-7virtues.jpg

5394349371_94f8364cb3_z.jpg

Caritas in the middle ... 3 theological virtues
 

Lady Iron Side

Okay I'm now very confused.... With the card in the Cary Yale it is depicting both then ( Mirror ) and ( Child ) = Prudence and Charity, so what is going on with this card then. as you can see, there is NO FIRE anywhere being depicted in the card, the mirror has replaced it. your input would be valuable.

Which also leaves me confused with the Hope Card, it depicts a man praying to the SUN, not a star, he has rope leading from his praying hands to an anchor. I know what the Anchor mean, and the Sun, yet this card contradicts itself. again you input please.

the only card that isn't confusing is the Faith card, for she hold the cup and a cross staff.
 

Huck

There's no guarantee, that you find a flame or a child or children with Caritas. Caritas traditions might vary from location to location and are also modified with time and naturally also from artist to artist.

That's also so with other allegories.

38.jpg

no children, no flame, but a pelican feeding his young with its own blood

The usual way to search motifs is Google and the search-images-tool and finding the right search keys like "Caritas", "theological virtue", "virtues" and other possible useful keys.

**********************************


Added: Indeed we have an error about the Cary-Yale Tarocchi with the card, which is called "World" by Kaplan, but which is actually Fame.

1011957.jpg


If you look at the trumpet in the right hand of the female person (so left at the picture), then you see a "winged trumpet". A "winged trumpet is a typical symbol for "Fame".

OB-9575-042.jpg

with poem (note the word "Fama")

Ne tumeas fastu, si non ingloria nomen
Fama tibi & laudes addidit egregias.
Sic te larga Dei excepit clementia: cuius
Iste tibi solo munere cessit honor.

http://emblems.let.uu.nl/av1615033.html

See also the Minchiate-Fama:

Foto%201.jpg


... with text Fama volat ("Fame flies" ... in this case the wings are given to the angel)
 

Lady Iron Side

Thanks Huck, I felt that as well with the World Card, same reasons as you. as you can see there are contradictions with this deck ( Cary Yale ) as to naming and placing of the cards. the more you go into the symbols the more you'll see it.

I find the bottom picture you posted to look similar to the Judgment cards of today... don't you. the way the Angel is depicted.

So far we have established:

The World as truly being - Fame = Prudence
Faith - is Faith - she depicts cup and cross

so here we are left with

Hope = ? (Anchor,the Sun, rope, etc ) = ?

Charity card = ? ( Mirror, child, ) = ?

I came across this, in reasearching, just thought to throw past you. how ever when I follow the symbols on each card it all works out, mind you I am missing 1 card only. I will highlight in bold in the QUOTE. anyways just thought to throw out another concept of possibility.

Keep in mind I'm only using the original Cards, I did however add 2 reconstructed cards Queen of Cups and the King of Arrow/Batons in the ended. for these were originally missing.

We Know that we Have 11 original Majors (as we call them) however when I take the female page of Arrows/Baton and place her up in the Majors we now have 12, which then gives you 4 higher cards from the kings in each suit. Why do choose to use the Female Page of Batons/Arrows, because she is depicted completely different than the other cards in her suit, I have explained in another thread about this. (she has dew droplets on her dress, not Fountains, and her hand is raised in a benediction (style) in the tarot decks of today there are 2 cards that show dew droplets Tower and the Moon.

The whole suit of swords with the added trumps higher than the king of the suit is complete ( eagles ) Emperor, Empress, Fortitude/strength, the World/Fame

The whole suit of coins following the white doves/coin symbols is complete with the addition 4 trumps higher than the king. Male Knight of Coins , Chariot, Judgement (White doves ) only these cards have this symbol. Now the Male page of coins is questionable due to it being a reconstructed card. by Scapini

and same with the suite of Arrows/Batons. Now in this suit, I followed the symbols and the 16 Gods, Death = the Vice Wrath, Now here I place the Charity card, only if I go by what S. Kaplan calls the Mirror. Silver torch or censor, Vesta the Virgin = Female Page of Arrow/Batons, Hope - Anchor ( 3 cards have 3 objects/symbols = same color Grey/Black ) as well as Metal objects ( scythe, anchor silver torch/censor ) no other cards in the deck have this.

in the suit of cups/ pleasures is where I am missing just 1 card ( Page or higher trump than the king ) Cere = Lovers, Bacchus - Male Page of Cups, Venus as the Female page of Cups ( Why did I chooses these - because their cups are much larger and don't match any other cups in the whole deck, they are different. Faith

Tom's examination of Micholino's deck as previously
described in Kaplan is much more extensive as
it describes an *accompanying book*:

Marziano da Tortona served as secretary to
duke Filippo Maria Visconti of Milan. But
that perhaps gives the wrong impression of
him. He was a scholar, Filippo's tutor, and
specialist in astrology (or astronomy, as the
two disciplines had not yet gone their
separate ways in the 15th century). Some time
around 1415 (date not entirely certain, but
not later than 1420), the young duke (he was
in his early twenties, having assumed the
title in 1412 at the age of 20) directed
Marziano to devise a card game according to
the duke's instructions.

Instead of the ordinary suits of swords,
coins, staves, and cups, the new deck was
to have suits representing virtues, riches,
virginities, and pleasures. The suit signs
were appropriate birds: eagles, phoenixes,
turtles (turtledoves?), and doves. Each suit
also had four cards higher than kings, depicted
as classical deities. This was apparently an
early exploration into the idea of "trumps",
because whereas the regular suit cards have
no power over cards of different suits, the
sixteen deities have an internal ordering that
bypasses their suit assignments and determines
which card wins over others.


The amazing thing is that Marziano actually
wrote a book to go with this deck of cards. In
the book, he describes the structure of the deck,
and then goes into great detail about each of the
classical deities, what they represent, and how
they are depicted on the cards. This was the first
ever "companion book" for a deck of cards, and it
is sitting in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris
to this day!
Not surprisingly, it does not give
divinatory meanings. But interestingly, neither
does it gives the rules of a card game. The focus
is on the allegorical meaning of the pictures and
their proper ranking.

But Marziano didn't make the cards himself. They
were turned over to a noted artist, Michelino da
Besozzo, who apparently made cards of extraordinary
beauty. In 1449, after the duke had died, a Venetian
captain named Marcello (in alliance with Francesco
Sforza in the attempt to capture Milan) heard of the
enormous value of these cards and "acquired" them
from the duke's estate and had them sent to the
queen of Lorraine as a present. He was also
determined to get the book along with them, which
he did. The cards apparently have not survived.

these appear to be the same as the previous reference
to the 16 cards referred to by Mr. P. Durrieu in 1911
in *Michelino de Besozzo et les relations entre l'art
italien et l'art francais*. apparently this book only
recently came to light? has anyone seen it or know
if a translation of its content has been made?



Added: Huck you might also want to look in on the so called Judgment card. I feel it is really the justice card, what is interesting is the 2 angels, so far I have found this they are depicting Virtue and Vice ( Yellow/pink wings = Envy. which is the Vice angel. the Virtue angel green wings = virtue offers the "Straight and Narrow" Vice tempts with an inviting, but dangerous world of passionate desire. Also on the trumpet is the white dove (gold) flag, I unable to see what is on the black/silver flag of the trumpet. ? The Tower has a person in one of the windows, also the Vice that is in the card resemble the vice in the Hope card. Now I see the Tombs, as really the Baths of those days (Roman baths)
views the Giotto frescoes that depict the virtues
and vices

these:
Virtues
Prudence
Fortitude
Temperance
Justice
Faith
Charity
Hope

Vice
Folly
Inconstancy
Wrath
Injustice
Infidelity
Envy
Despair

as suggestive of some of the Major Arcana
cards in the tarot pack. A definite connection
between Giotto and the early Visconti is well
established....
 

Lady Iron Side

Huck said:
Added: Indeed we have an error about the Cary-Yale Tarocchi with the card, which is called "World" by Kaplan, but which is actually Fame.

1011957.jpg


If you look at the trumpet in the right hand of the female person (so left at the picture), then you see a "winged trumpet". A "winged trumpet is a typical symbol for "Fame".

What I find interesting with this card is the symbols that are in it. you have 2 ship in floating in the sky, 1 ship on top of a mountain, a tower on top of a mountain, in the center city is a church with the Hebrew Star and other cool symbols, you need a magnifying glass to see them.

When i look at the ships placement it reminds me of Orin's belt, the pyramids. The Tower on the Mountain, hmm interesting ? wander what that means. also what is the symbol on the flag of the knight? Then the ship on the Mountain, is that sorta meaning Noah's Arch?


Edit: You will find this also interesting, worth looking into some more.
The first game to incorporate the idea of trumps
was probably not tarot but a game of the German
peasantry called Karnoffel. (Karnoffel, however,
used partial trumps, able to beat some, but not
all of the cards of a plain suit.)The English word *trump* is
simply a corruption of *triumph*, and, like the
German *Trumpf*,Dummett describes Gertrude Moakley's theory "in
her splendid book on the Visconti-Sforza pack"

that the Visconti di Modrone pack was a
*germini* or *minchiate* deck,The only basis for it is the
presence of the three theological virtues.
A *germini* pack has, like ordinary tarot
decks, four court cards, not six. Moreover,
with forty trumps, it is essential to number
them, whereas the Visconti di Modrone trumps
are unnumbered.... It's invention, as a
deliberate variation on an established game,
is to be dated to between 1526 and 1543, and
arose in a quite different cultural milieu
from the Visconti court at Milan. Describing
the Visconti di Modrone cards as a *germini*
pack is a piece of pseudo-scholarship.

* Care should be taken about making statements about the original meanings of the cards, based on the familiar titles and ordering. The intentions of the designers of the tarot in selecting the symbols for the trump cards is unknown.

In Bologna, no numbers were placed on the
trump cards until the second half of the
eighteenth century. Before that, as card
game books indicate, a player was required
to memorized the order of the trump subjects.
This was evidently true everywhere until the
practice of numbering the trump cards was
adopted in one place after another. The
pioneer appears to have been Ferrara: in a
late fifteenth-century popular pack from
that city, all of the trumps are numbered,
save the World.


As you are also finding the discrepancies/contradictions in the deck, Like I said there is more to this deck than meets the eyes. this deck need further study and research, not to be assumed as, and continually skipped over for better decks to be analysed.
 

Bernice

Hello people,

~~~ This is a reminder that the topic of this thread is "New at Trionfi.com". ~~~


There is no problem with responding to new additions to Trinfi, but please avoid indepth discussions about other topics which have their own threads.


There is a dedicated thread for the Cary-yale deck here;

Tarot Study Group: "Female Knights and Page - Cary Yale deck"
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=152008&page=1


Bernice and Evie.
_____________________
 

Huck

Something (Playing Cards ?) with paper was used in 1434 for memory and teaching

http://tarocchidea.wordpress.com/storia-dei-tarocchi/
contains
Gli usi didattici delle carte da gioco, furono probabilmente inaugurati da Vittorino da Feltre[14] che insegnava ai suoi scolari in alfabeto figurato literarum formas variis coloribus pictas ad lusum chartarum[15]e proseguono fino ai nostri giorni. ...

[14] Vittorino da Feltre (Feltre 1373 ca.-Mantova 1446).

[15] Lucia Nadin. Carte da gioco, op. cit. . Pag. 190.

Also:
http://books.google.de/books?id=D0g... coloribus pictas ad lusum chartarum"&f=false

Also Andrea Vitali:
http://www.letarot.it/Semi-Simbolici_pag_pg180_ita.aspx
translated:
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=180&lng=ENG

One of the first of not ecclesiastic origin testimonies concerning the meaning of the card suits, concerning the meaning of the cards suits, can be found in the booklet Regulae Artificialis Memoriae by Jacopo Rangone written in 1434. The work belongs to the wide production upon art of memory that was born in the XV century. We have to recall, for example, those by Lodovico da Pirano, Matteo da Verona and Pietro da Ravenna, in which were used even game cards as “imagines agentes” (images able to act) for the construction of personal artificial apparatus.

The booklets were used by noblemen and high-brows of the time, but even by merchants and common people for various situations concerning the necessity to remember something. In Venice during the XV century, every patrician, a noble or simple urban did not go outside without having copied and noted the essential rules of the artificial memory to be sure to get the necessary fluidity to talk to a public and the clearness of the discourse for the commercial acting.

These booklets were usually structured in three salient points: 1) A short introduction in which there was the recalling to the most preeminent sources, such as Cicero, Saint Thomas and Aristotle. 2) The modality of choosing places. 3) A list of the hundred images to use and specific rules about their placement (2).

Vittorino da Feltre had already used the cards as a didactic instrument, when he taught to his pupils a figured alphabet “literarum formas variis coloribus pictas ad lusum chartarum, but the game became a common argument for the reflections of pedagogists and jurists in the XVI century.