Strength and Justice Reversal

Why is Strength 8 and Justice 11 in the RWS deck when this is opposite in the Marseille deck?
This tends to muck up the numerology for the cards, as 8 is stated in the Hermetic and Platonic Number Systems "as above, so below" yet this is what we hold for Justice in position 11 of the RWS deck.

Any thoughts or enlightenments?

The Golden Dawn made the switch so Justice would correspond to Libra and Strength to Leo in their system of correspondences. Waite and Smith were both affiliated with the GD at one point.

Alpha-bits

Sailor Girl said:

Why is Strength 8 and Justice 11 in the RWS deck when this is opposite in the Marseille deck?
This tends to muck up the numerology for the cards, as 8 is stated in the Hermetic and Platonic Number Systems "as above, so below" yet this is what we hold for Justice in position 11 of the RWS deck.

Any thoughts or enlightenments?

Click to expand...

Of the ancient letters there are

3 Mother Letters (1, 13, 21) Air, Water, Fire
7 Double Letters (2, 3, 4, 11, 17, 20, 22) The 7 'traditional' planets
12 Simple Letters (5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19) The Signs of the Zodiac

Match these up to the 'Marseille' Tarot card numbers (with The Fool/Le Mat as 22) and you have the basic "pre-golden-dawn" letter/card correspondences.

When the-golden-dawn wanted to have Mercury for their Magus card, they moved the Fool to letter 1 and so were able to attribute letter 2 to their Magus, and since letter 2 is a Double Letter the 'problem' was solved. Unfortunately (imho) by so doing, the-golden-dawn also changed the entire set of attributions for all the Tarot cards as well.

This created a further problem for the-golden-dawn because now:
8 Justice was letter 9 Leo
11 Strength was letter 12 Libra

Focusing on the imagery only (scales and lion) the-golden-dawn switched the card numbers to achieve less embarrassing letter attributions for cards 8 and 11. The main point here is that the-golden-dawn was not working with Tarot, but a form of Kabbalah (magic numbers, etc.).

Hope that Helps
KariRoad

KariRoad, great summary! (It would have taken me pages to get that all clear!)

Just 2 additional notes:

In GD kabbalah and tarot, the signs are in their proper order (5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19 are Aries through Pisces in order, with the Strength-Justice switch), but the planets are all mixed up to make sensible matches with tarot majors (no matter what planet order you might go with). That bugs me some . . .

On the other hand, not only does the switch make Strength Leo and Justice Libra, it also makes Justice the middle of the majors (11 is the middle number of 1-21), a nice "balancing point." As Libra marks the middle of the signs. So there is some numerological sense to it, too, not just astrological. To me anyway.

hi rachelcat

rachelcat said:

In GD kabbalah and tarot, the signs are in their proper order (5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19 are Aries through Pisces in order, with the Strength-Justice switch), but the planets are all mixed up to make sensible matches with tarot majors (no matter what planet order you might go with). That bugs me some . . .

On the other hand, not only does the switch make Strength Leo and Justice Libra, it also makes Justice the middle of the majors (11 is the middle number of 1-21), a nice "balancing point." As Libra marks the middle of the signs. So there is some numerological sense to it, too, not just astrological. To me anyway.

Click to expand...

7 Double Letters (2, 3, 4, 11, 17, 20, 22) The 7 'traditional' planets

If one were to place a planet as the attribution for each of the above Double Letters there will be a challenging task indeed to choose which would go where, but the 'logic' would be Tarot-logic and not a picture book of obvious matches. We see that neither 18 The Moon or 19 The Sun are Double Letters, and so we have an ancient clue that what you see is not obvious, but occult (in the pure sense of the word).

It does help to know that Tarot is not Kabbalah. 2 The High Priestess is almost certainly the Moon; 3 The Empress very likely is Venus; but what then, for there are 5 more planets for cards 4, 11, 17, 20, and 22. And much of the "logic" can be experienced (through contemplation) by aligning tarot cards 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18, and 19 beginning with Aries and in order through Pisces. Equally, 1, 13, and 21 would then correspond with Air, Water, and Fire. Possibly too daunting a task after all that had been presented elsewhere.

12 The Hanged Man makes a very intriguing "Libra" and as you say "a nice balancing point" too

KariRoad said:

Unfortunately (imho) by so doing, the-golden-dawn also changed the entire set of attributions for all the Tarot cards as well.

Click to expand...

Or corrected them, depending on your point of view.

The Golden Dawn attributions disclose a specific doctrine. They are a symbolic conduit for a particular teaching. You can alter the attributions to convey other information if you wish. There are no right or wrong attributions per se. But there are correct attributions within the context of specific teaching systems and their associated symbolic frameworks. Change the attributions and you're essentially talking a different language. No better or worse, just different.

Aeon418 said:

There are no right or wrong attributions per se.

Click to expand...

Of the ancient letters there are

3 Mother Letters (1, 13, 21) Air, Water, Fire
7 Double Letters (2, 3, 4, 11, 17, 20, 22) The 7 'traditional' planets
12 Simple Letters (5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19) The Signs of the Zodiac

Whether "right or wrong" these are the ancient originals, and still in use today.

KariRoad said:

Whether "right or wrong" these are the ancient originals, and still in use today.

Click to expand...

No one is disputing that. How they are applied to Tarot is where the question of right or wrong arises. The "correctness" of any set of attributions depends on the context within which they are being used. Within a Golden Dawn framework the Golden Dawn Tarot attributions are correct.

Aeon418 said:

No one is disputing that. How they are applied to Tarot is where the question of right or wrong arises. The "correctness" of any set of attributions depends on the context within which they are being used. Within a Golden Dawn framework the Golden Dawn Tarot attributions are correct.

Click to expand...

Hiya! So, the original question being "Why is Strength 8 and Justice 11 in the RWS deck when this is opposite in the Marseille deck?" might you elaborate what the "switch" was supposed to accomplish in terms of golden-dawn context, especially considering Lady Harris' "Thoth" Tarot presented 8 Balance and 11 Lust, ie; 8 Justice and 11 Force (Strength)? Thanks!

KariRoad said:

Hiya! So, the original question being "Why is Strength 8 and Justice 11 in the RWS deck when this is opposite in the Marseille deck?" might you elaborate what the "switch" was supposed to accomplish in terms of golden-dawn context, especially considering Lady Harris' "Thoth" Tarot presented 8 Balance and 11 Lust, ie; 8 Justice and 11 Force (Strength)? Thanks!

Click to expand...

Remember that the Thoth is not a "pure" Golden Dawn deck. While it is firmly rooted in Golden Dawn symbolism, it has it's own Thelemic tweaks and modifications that set it apart.

In a Golden Dawn context the Strength card was linked to magick power. It's associated correspondences, the Hebrew letter Teth(Serpent) and the sign of Leo, are symbols of the fiery serpent power, Kundalini. This power is a potentially destructive force if it is not channelled and transmuted into other forms. The transmutation of this singular force from one form into another was symbolised by the lemniscate above the head of the woman who tames the Lion and also the number 8. The former symbol is also shared by the Magician who is Hermes - As above, so below.

That which is below is as that which is above, and that which is above is as that which is below, for the performance of the miracles of the One Thing.

Click to expand...

If 8 - Strength shows this transmutation in motion, then 11 Justice is more like a static snap shot. It shows a single moment of Judgment when the scales are weighed. In this sense cards 8 and 11 are intrinsically linked. Both cards represent the same thing, but the movement in card 8 is stopped in card 11. This is why one of the conventional meanings of Strength is:

Power not arrested as in an act of judgement, but passing on to further action.

Click to expand...

You rightly point out that Crowley put the cards back in their traditional order. But in Crowley's Thelemic system the number of magick is not 8, it is 11. And Crowley's renaming of Justice, Adjustment, was to show the economy of the universe symbolised by the number 8. You make a change in one part, and a compensatory change appears in another part because All is One Thing.

In a way Crowley's reversion to the traditional Tarot order was more incidental than intentional. 11 is the number of magick in his system, so Strength (Lust) has to be card XI. But thank your lucky stars. If Crowley could have completely swapped the Emperor for the Star he would have made The Star card 4, and the Emperor card 17.