Waite and his numerous "veils"

ravenest

Great ... now we have TWO bitching Israelis here ! :joke:

Hi uri :)

closrapexa said:
It is very good to see another Israeli here interested in GD lore,
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Yes it is.

uri_raz said:
If you count people interested in offshoots (OTO, BOTA, etc), there are plenty. Apparently they don't talk much with each other. Or maybe they just don't like talking with me, not blaming them any for it.
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I will talk to you ... as long as you stop calling OTO an offshoot of GD . Here is a better explanation.

http://oto-usa.org/oto/history/ ( Sanctioned by Fr. Sabazius ; a scholar and a fine chap! )

uri_raz said:
My impression is most of them want the explanation to validate their preconceptions, and are unhappy when it doesn't.
I get this most often with astrological attribution to the court cards - when I give them the correct answer, they just quote scripture (read: Dr. Yoav Ben Dov's book, whether they learnt it directly or indirectly), even in face of scripture's author's admission the attribution he uses is in no way Waite's.
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(I don’t find this bitching at all actually … it’s a description of a ‘dynamic’ )

And

closrapexa said:
... certain topics are too complicated or not suitable for the general reader, etc. Still, when those same subjects are explained to those same people (and this phenomenon is seen quite acutely in most parts of Aeclectic) the explainer is met with glassy eyes, and the inquirer inevitably retreats to the warm embrace of "intuitive reading."

People just aren't interested, and in many cases even those who are angered by Waite's obscurity resist actually doing the work of lifting the veils. Like Mary said quite rightly, people find any reason to lodge complaints, and if Waite had, indeed, written a book comparable in scope to the Book of Thoth, the same complaints made against that book would be made against Waite, that it is too long, too complicated, etc. In order to understand the interchange of Strength and Justice one would have to study Kabbalah, astrology and a few other things just for the explanation not to sound like gibberish, and that still wouldn't guarantee understanding the reasoning behind it. But general readers mostly confine themselves to complaining about the style while being disinterested in the substance.
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Are some of the reasons that initiates and others are instructed (around the level of initiation / comprehension {or before it} that is being discussed now) in the four powers of the Sphinx ; To Know, to Will, to Dare and to Keep SILENT ;)

Not that I want you to keep silent from me because I am learning stuff … but I think ‘keeping silent’ can be seen as not responding to certain types or using a shared and understood symbol system and not trying to spell everything out … those that sincerely want to learn in this tradition will do the homework the others won’t bother.

Not that it keeps ME from being silent … blah blah blah !
 

Richard

uri_raz said:
If you count people interested in offshoots (OTO, BOTA, etc), there are plenty. Apparently they don't talk much with each other. Or maybe they just don't like talking with me, not blaming them any for it.
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OTO is an offshoot of Freemasonry. No wonder they don't communicate. Who wants to have their tongue torn out by the roots? :joke: Perhaps those in kinder, gentler esoteric orders will be more willing to communicate. ;)
 

uri_raz

LRichard said:
OTO is an offshoot of Freemasonry. No wonder they don't communicate. Who wants to have their tongue torn out by the roots? :joke: Perhaps those in kinder, gentler esoteric orders will be more willing to communicate. ;)
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My friends who were freemasons had no issue talking about everything, except the secret handshakes. Initially they were excited about the initiation rituals, then they were disappointed that the freemasons were a social club with a big library.
 

ravenest

LRichard said:
OTO is an offshoot of Freemasonry. No wonder they don't communicate. Who wants to have their tongue torn out by the roots? :joke: Perhaps those in kinder, gentler esoteric orders will be more willing to communicate. ;)
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'Punishments' are coded a la Crowley in OTO (he did get to rewrite the rituals) but in FM ... no idea!

Tongues have roots ??? NO C. ! please do not post a pic of tongue removed and roots dangling ( ugghh!)
 

Richard

uri_raz said:
My friends who were freemasons had no issue talking about everything, except the secret handshakes. Initially they were excited about the initiation rituals, then they were disappointed that the freemasons were a social club with a big library.
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I was kidding before, of course.

In many Masonic lodges one would probably be considered weird for showing much interest in the esoteric aspect of the symbolism, whose supposed legitimate purpose is merely for the teaching of moral truths. This was probably true in Waite's day also, and may have accounted for the formation of the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia in the mid 19th century and the subsequent interest of some Masons in forming the Golden Dawn.

Waite clearly saw the eternal truth in Masonry in spite of its moralistic veneer, and he was obviously impressed by the organization. His Masonic experience probably accounts for his respect for initiatory oaths.

That said, discussion of his 'veils' makes me a bit nauseous. What's done is done. Maybe there is some sort of advantage to trying to work out what he was trying to express (which he did implicitly rather than explicitly). I agree with closrapexa that putting the Kings at the top of the pecking order was a bit much. When I first came to the realization of what he had done, I felt as if a rug had been pulled out from under me. After that there was total relief, of course. A less serious quibble is his using a black cat instead of a leopard in the Queen of Wands. A minor annoyance, but still an annoyance. Why not just leave the cat out altogether?
 

ravenest

Rediculous that a Freemason would quibble about a handshake when they are on page 1 of google images

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3kUoaa6g9...AJI8/S8S3wTCAvII/s1600/masonic_handshakes.jpg

Also there are these guys google ; mystical masons

Think : how many people at AE are mystic magical tarot readers ... how many pretend to be or think they are and how many have no interest in that yet use tarot. Why should Freemasonry 'suffer a difference'?

And by the way if you go to Google search now (or today) the first window is a gas : (note the masonic symbols on the psychiatrist's walls :laugh:

What picture did you see ???? ( I think the psychiatrist should be banned - he showed me a picture of his penis !!! ... wait ... no ... that's Cowley's head .... no wait ... )
 
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