Is there any Occult Symbolism that's objectively present in the Tarot de Marseille?

Rusty Neon

Many Tarot de Marseille authors see occult symbolism in many of the details of the 78 cards of the TdM deck. They see symbolism from the various occult sciences: astrology, Freemasonry, alchemy, Kaballah, etc.

This thread is about the question: What, if any, occult symbolism is _objectively_ present in the 1760 Conver Tarot de Marseille? If so, in which card?

For example:

Do the Emperor's crossed legs unmistakenly point to alchemical symbolism for Sulphur? Or is it merely one variation of a sitting position?

Does the image of the angel with the two vases in the Temperance card unambiguously intended to illustrate alchemical processes?

Are the twins in the Sun card unambiguously suggesting the astrological sign of Gemini?

What of the hermaphrodite devil in the Devil card, and the androgynous figure in the World card?

Any others?
 

Lee

I think this is an interesting question but I don't think there's any way of answering it. Some will be convinced of such occult intentions by the creator(s), and some will be just as convinced of the lack of such intentions. I think it all comes down to a subjective judgment for each of us as to whose arguments we find most convincing.

-- Lee
 

Rusty Neon

You're right, Lee, we'll never know for sure the answer to this fundamental question; however, this is a question that crosses my mind as I read the various French books on the Tarot de Marseille. That said, the authors of such books often see things as occult that probably weren't so intended by Conver and his predecessors.

Unfortunately, neither Nicolas Conver nor those before him left Little White Booklets to go with their respective versions of the Tarot de Marseille.
 

jmd

Though one may not know the intent of the individual artists, what may be investigated is the iconography as it also appears in earlier or contemporary sources.

For example, that Justice is not blind-folded already points to a long tradition which has particular significance - whether or not the artist was aware of the significance.

With regards to the two individuals in the Sun card, or the crustacean in the Moon card, again we may draw from a study of mediaeval iconography, whether or not the woodcut artist(s) were aware of the connected astrological symbolism.

It is a combination, then, of what is presented in the cards, and the careful analysis of the language's precise details. Or, as Coomaraswamy says (and which I have elsewhere quoted):
  • 'Symbolism is a language and a precise form of thought; a hieratic and a metaphysical language and not a language determined by somatic or psychological categories. Its foundation is in analogical correspondences [...] symbolism is a calculus in the same sense that an adequate analogy is a proof.'
In that sense, the study is not subjective, and the iconography may be studied as objectively as any other field.
 

Lee

Jmd makes a good point, but I still think it's an open question as to whether, for example, the Emperor is shown with legs crossed because the artist based the picture on already-existing iconography, or if it just happened to coincide with that iconography and perhaps the artist was unaware of it.

On the other hand, if there are medieval sources which show the concept of Temperance being illustrated by a woman pouring liquid between two cups or vases, I would certainly agree that the artist of the earliest tarot deck (which was not the Marseille) probably based his or her image on the earlier sources.

-- Lee
 

Diana

Rusty Neon said:
Unfortunately, neither Nicolas Conver nor those before him left Little White Booklets to go with their respective versions of the Tarot de Marseille.
Click to expand...

I have always been so happy that there was no Little White Book available for the Tarot of Marseille. :)

The Temple that the Papess guards is the Temple of Man. No-one can give a Little White Book to teach us how to enter it. Only through trial and error will we learn the truth.

I don't think any initiatory process can be spoon-fed. It needs to be a personal journey - sometimes sorrowful, sometimes joyful. Never easy.

Edited to add: Why would one need a book, little or big, when one has the greatest one already - the Tarot itself.
 

Rusty Neon

Further on the Emperor ...

Here's another view on the Emperor's crossed legs:

"Van Rijnberk relates, based on writings, that this attitude [i.e., the crossed legs] is a privilege. Only powerful individuals could allow themselves to do it, as it was at a certain period of time in history discourteous and improper to cross one's legs when sitting."

Thus, the crossed legs of the Emperor could indicate that he's a powerful figure.

The quotation is from Carole Sédillot's _Ombres et lumières du tarot_.
 

Cerulean

Does the Emporer always have a white beard?

I've been reading a book that I just picked up on the mythical Charlemagne (1000 years of myth) and it sparkles of European
epics based on Orlando/Roland and myths that came as early as circa 900-1000 AD of Otto visiting the 'tomb' of Charlemagne...

Throughout history, Charlemagne in various forms became depicted as a white-bearded, seated figure holding a globe with cross in one hand, a staff in the other. He is usually crowned and robed and according to the mythological account, he was entombed seated in a royal throne. Sometimes he has an open book on his lap. By the 1490s, as the patron saint of French King Charles VIII, there were mythologies that said a Christian French King was one of the true saviors of an empire that included Italy...and ten years before he invaded Italy to claim Naples through his mother's ancestry, Charles began amassing documentation to prove his claim. From 1277 to be named King of Naples also meant in your title to be King of Jeruselum...when he walked into Naples in 1495, King Charles held both the globe with the cross and the sceptres in his hands...it is said to be sovereignty over the land of Naples and perhaps the first step of his intentions to follow his namesake.

And while each tarot deck, French or Italian, does not always have the white-bearded Emporer, seated, with the sceptre in one hand and the globe and the cross (for sovereignty over the Christian world), many historical depictions of mythical Charlemagne have the same symbols...even the Hapsberg Eagle... the iconography usually does have symbolism, sometimes spiritual to the viewer and prevailing belief system of the time.

Perhaps the wandering point to all this is one can see many impressions of the past in such designs, whether Italian-French humanism and courtly love, French Catholicism, Occult, Alchemy. Since I'm not from an Italian or French Catholic background, much of the iconography that I see in cards such as the Emporer seem fantastically intriguing, with each deck having a reflective bit of much of the above--at least what I can find about it.

By the way, my tarot crossroads favorite as I read of historical Charlemagne is the Jacques Vieville, which many do not believe is a true TdM--but likely an interesting reflection of iconography of its 1641-1661 time.

Mari H.
 
Design and Colour Differences between the Fournier and Grimaud TdM decks Marseilles on-line references