After Trump X....what #correspondence do you use?

Recently, I downloaded some pages on numbers and meanings from the link below:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24734&highlight=Marseilles+Learning+Styles

As I read through the pages, I wasn't sure since there was so much information to digest, how people used Trumps XI to XXI to relate to first ten trumps and to the first 10 numbers....

So, if we have a set of meanings we work with for 1-10....e.g. I like Umbrae's explanations for the numbers 1 through 10 as numbers....then we can correspond numbers 1 through 10 to the first ten trumps...

But how do some of you use Trumps XI - XXI...some say XI goes with I, XII with II, XIII with III...and so on...

also, Diana, I believe indicates 11 hints at 2 or II, 12 hints at 3 or III, 13 hints at 4 or IV...and so on....

Without relisting everything in that thread since there were many good systems listed...I wonder if we could share how we relate XI to XXI to other trumps and to a number system, and , of course, The Fool or Le Mat.

the minors 1-10...can eaily be related to the first ten trumps...it's after that that I get fuzzy...

terri

In the thread Elements and Majors, mention is also briefly made of another relation which Gareth Knight makes within the overall pattern of the Atous (Major Arcana) which does not rely on pairings. It is one of the more brilliant expositions I have come across.

With regards to pairings, there are various ones suggested. Possibly the oldest (though I would stand corrected if my memory serves me incorrectly) is one also suggested by Wirth, in which the cards are placed in sequence and then folded back upon themselves, the first row therefore appearing in ascending order, the bottom in descending (sometimes referred to as a plough-ordering or arrangement). Though this has certain merits, it does not seem to connect the imagery as well as my preferred method, and have hence personally dropped it.

Numerous authors seem to prefer the additive method of correlation, where a multi-digit number has its digits added until a single digit is arrived at. So '12' is reduced to three by the addition of the '1' and the '2'. Personally, I do not find this method as revealing of the possible iconographic connections as the next method I mention below, and have thus personally dropped it.

My preferred means is by pairings, as mentioned by tmgrl2, by looking at the digits as written in additive Roman: I with I, II with II, ... VII with VII, etc., with the 'X' showing an inversal or 'inner' quality of its 'outer' face. So the connections are between, for example, I & XI, VIII & XVIII, &c.. With also, interestingly, XXI and the Fou being paired.

This remains, of course, a personal preference.

Now, does this relate to a NUMBER system? For myself, I do not, actually, relate it to a formal number system per se. So the reflective properties of the number five, as an example, and though I do apply the same to the pips, I do not thereby also impose on the Atous of the Pope.

Some may indeed prefer to use a correlative principle between the pips and the corresponding Majors. For myself, I personally consider that the two are not so related. Whereas the pips do indeed have increadible geometry and mathematically significant qualities, it is the imagery and iconography which shines in the Atouts... though watch this Forum for a discovery recently made by Trevor with regards to the geometry on an early deck !

Thank you, jmd for the link and your response...I, myself, since I need to keep things simple when I read, which is new to me, seem to prefer the XI and I , XII and II, XIII and III...


I like X and XX...The Wheel and Judgment...that just strikes me as so "belonging together" ...fate, luck ...free will and coming clean...

This works for me, too.

I read that other thread...it's interesting information, but unless I can take it in and hold it for a purpose, it remains just that for me....little by little I internalize what feels right.

Manley Hall, BTW, in his discussion of Pythagorean numbers, talks about numbers....when he discusses #3 he refers to spirit , mind , soul.....how does that differ form mind, body, spiriit? Soul = spirit? #4 for earth, fire, air, water

For #6....the cube...6 elements earth, fire, air, water, spirit and matter...or 6 surfaces, N,S, E, W , Up and Down...or Front, back, right, left, above, below...


#7...threefold mind, body, spirit and four-fold elements


Somehow it helps me when I think of the numbers in terms of this expansion that becomes more inclusive as the numbers go up. Like an expanding universe. From one came all.

I have been playing with the XI (I) and up combo though and like it....

The threes still have too many interpretations...Father, Mother, Son...

Father, Son, Holy Spirit...(Is this what is meant by Mind (Father)
Body(Son) and Spirit (Holy Spirit)? What I am trying to do now is meditate on the minors in terms of numbers...

Then, make the connections within the Trumps with XXI and the Fool...Why do you like that connection, jmd? I know there is one card left to correlate...but I like to think of the Fool as anywhere..definitely not in the beginning,but not necessarily associated with XXI.

Got a bit off here with the elements...but the numbers and elements correspond as well...The Gareth Knight work is interesting. Have to ponder it some.

terri

In the thread on X La Rove de Fortvne, I mention in passing the connection between the turning inward of X, and the re-turn to the outer world from the depths of the Earth in XX.

I further elaborate on this in a post I made in the Kabalah section in a thread called Personal paths (note the word 'Personal'!).

There is yet another thread (which I cannot instantly locate) in which I also describe what I see of significance in the suggested connections of those pairings - but given this thread, I may as well re-iterate it. It will undoubtedly be in a different form, though the pairing will remain.

Of I -VIIII, there is a sense that these are the outer 'faces', representing what is shown to the world. With X, an inversal or reversal is suggested, where the ensuing images show the inner or complimentary qualities.

Of, specifically, XXI & the Fool, XXI shows the individual as they re-emerge from the fullness of the Journey, as an integrated being, oft, however, the world taking their character as though s/he be but a Fool.

In my own personal working, I tend to view these as an ascent or process of integration and spiritual awakening. I hence also place these, as pairs, upon the Tree of Life, with I / XI in Malkut, and XXI/Fool in Keter - with X/XX over the Abyss of Da'at. Again, however, this is just my personal workings, and not - as yet or to my knowledge in any case - in any publication.

In terms of the pairings, and irrespective of the more personal Kabalistic associations indicated, the pairs have merit as they really quite well exemplify peculiar aspects which are quite illuminating and striking.

• [*]I-XI shows the inner strength which the manipulator of the elements needs to develop;
  
  [*]II-XII shows that by the quietitude of the meditative act, an altered state, similar to an initiatory one, is needed;
  
  [*]III-XIII as the fruits of the land are abundant, what is needed is also its fertilising decaying processes as presented by the reaping of death;
  
  [*]IIII-XIIII mastery and control requires the inner proper admixture of appropriate ingredients, shown by Temperance;
  _____
  
  [*]V-XV when the one who properly points to the spiritual is instead focussed on structures, the seat of St Peter solidifies to the bonding of the anvil;
  
  [*]VI-XVI the young man needs to choose to leave his mother and set out into the world with his young bride, causing the arrow of Love to be experienced as the lightning bolt upon his current home;
  
  [*]VII-XVII in order for Aaron to ascend and allow the Will of the Divine to be done, no reigns are held, but the energies allowed to flow down and through to transfigure the directing forces;
  _____
  
  [*]X/XX Dangers await those who think they know, or use their knowledge to attempt to still the wheel - rather, an open-ness to the call from the internment needs to be allowed to resound
  _____
  
  [*]VIII-XVIIII as the Moon reflects the light of the Divine, so does Justice needs to be able to see and properly weigh (for those interested in Kabalah, note that I place these in Binah);
  
  [*]VIIII-XVIIII the inner light is as a child, found and prepared for the integration which yet needs to alchemically occur'
  
  [*]XXI-Fou the integration being completed, the wanderer may wander paths others see not...

______________________________

But my own workings are my own, and each of course needs to find their own ways of working, whether with numbers, letters, alchemical, kabalistic or other possible correlations - but even more importantly, by, in my personal opinion, carefully looking at the imagery itself.

This is such a wonderful summary!! Thank you, (((jmd)))

Printing out....

It resonates with what I have internalized so far...I have thought of the early Trumps as being outer, more earthly aspects and later trumps as having to do with the inner journey in any phase or situation in life...

Also, I like the TdM VIII as LaJustice instead of Strength because of the paring. In keeping with this that pairs I with XI ...I like Strength/Fortitude with I if we use this sequence...It is also very easy to internalize and accept (at least for me).

Of course, I printed out to add to my summaries I find most helpful. Will now read above links. Thank you.

terri

Thank you for those wonderful links, jmd....I'm glad I started this thread since it bumped forward a good composite of information on the correlation...especially interesting thread on La Rou de Fortune!

terri

Thank you for starting this thread tmgrl, I too have been pondering this lately (as you may know due to our bumping noses in XI Strength).

And thank you Jmd for the cap of your personal system.

I have been laying cards out in various ways, experimenting to see what feels right, & last night something quite interesting emerged (well, interesting to my newbie eyes, that is )

I was looking at the Hermit, trying to decide whether Moon or Sun complimented him better, & came to the conclusion that both cards fit equally well. I then thought--why does it have to be one or the other? The Moon & Sun cards seem to reflect one another, as well. Finally it dawned on me to just accept this grouping (Hermit/Moon/Sun) as a 'pod' of three, rather than arbitrarily exclude any card . . . Pope/Lovers/Devil seemed another obvious group of three, so I decided to continue grouping in threes (1 card from one row--that is, cards I-X, or XI & up--& 2 from the other) . . . then, as I did this, I began to notice a numeric phenomenon happening. In the end, I wound up with:

III The Empress/IIII The Emperor/XIII
3 + 4 + 13 = 20 > 2

VII The Chariot/VIII Justice/XVI The Tower
7 + 8 + 16 = 31 > 4

II The Papess/XIIII Temperance/XVII The Star
2 + 14 + 17 = 33 > 6

V The Pope/VI The Lovers/XV The Devil
5 + 6 + 15 = 26 > 8

VIIII The Hermit/XVIII The Moon/XVIIII The Sun
9 + 18 + 19 = 46 > 10

--Please note that 2 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 10 = 30 > 3

I was then left with six unassigned (numbered) cards, & the Fool. The six remaining numbered cards seemed to naturally fall into three pairs, as follows:

I Le Bateleur/XI Strength
1 + 11 = 12 > 3

X Wheel of Fortune/XX Judgment
10 + 20 = 30 > 3

XII The Hanged Man/XXI The World
12 (> 3) + 21 (> 3) = 6

--That is, two pairs reducing to three, and one pair of threes.

I left the Fool on his own.

Numbers can of course be manipulated in many directions, & this is surely just one of them But the thing is, I was led to this grouping more by iconography than by number. Arranged in this way, the images really do seem to fit together well. Here's what I see in each 'pod' or group:

III The Empress/IIII The Emperor/XIII
Seats of fecundity & power, both nourished in life & levelled in the end by the reaper's sickle & its fruits (see heads of Empress & Emperor themselves at base of card XIII)

VII The Chariot/VIII Justice/XVI The Tower
Charioteer holds baton in right hand w/ two horses below; Justice holds sword in right hand with two scales dangling below; bolt of flame/lightning on Tower card analogous to baton/sword, with two human figures tumbling below.

II The Papess/XIIII Temperance/XVII The Star
Three female figures, all facing the same direction & (legs excluded) roughly analogous in body position. Elements of reflection predominant (water . . . book). XIIII & XVII as inner aspects of II, increasingly revealed/denuded.

V The Pope/VI The Lovers/XV The Devil
Similarity between blessing in card V, & ceremony of marriage (?) in card VI. Devil as mockery of both (see firemaiden's recent thread in using tarot cards . . . ) Hand & arm positions of Devil as Pope's gesture in reverse; Lovers of VI chained in XV; Devil as 'dark side' of Cupid (VI).

VIIII The Hermit/XVIII The Moon/XVIIII The Sun
Doubling in both Moon & Sun cards; twins of XVIIII reflected as baying hounds, & towers, of XVIII. The two celestial bodies as twins in & of themselves--one dark, & the other light. Night (XVIII) as the Hermit's proper environment, Sun (XVIIII) as his own inner light (lantern). Night & day together suggestive of time & its passage . . . thereby supporting Kronos/Father-Time aspects of old man.

I Le Bateleur/XI Strength
--Connected by virtue of the lemniscate hat. Masculine vs. feminine (tube/rod of Bateleur, vs. mouth of lion . . . )

X Wheel of Fortune/XX Judgment
In X, three figures go up & then come down . . . in XX, three figures go down & then come up. Themes of change & vicissitude . . . a savour of meek inheriting the earth . . .

XII The Hanged Man/XXI The World
Both cards depict a solitary individual within a 'frame' (of vegetable matter). Position of legs is identical but reversed/mirrored; gravitational orientation is also reversed. Deeper significance of this: ignominy vs. glory, etc. etc. . . .

The Fool
--Has no number, & therefore no place.

**************************************************

In summary: Five sets of three, numbered in such a way as to 'reduce', respectively, to 2, 4, 6, 8, & 10; which, added together, in turn reduces to 3. Three additional pairs, two of which reduce to 3, & one comprised of two cards which on their own both reduce to 3. Lastly, one unnumbered fool. Nine units in all . . . or three threes.

I'm happy!

Very late here in NY....this is a wonderful post, punchinella...printing out as well to study away from my computer.....have been reading threads on Da'at as well....

and the Hermit's Light....

My mind is peeping out through its lamp....and soaking up all of this "conversation".....as I walk and leave behind my ripples in the water....


thank you

terri