Tarot and the Wheel of the Year: a ritual calendar

Tanga

Tarot and the Wheel of the Year

...Ah, yes. You're right, of course, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it.

...I agree that the Sun at Litha makes sense.
That said, at least in the parts of the world where I live, summer usually doesn't hit in full force until about Lughnasadh...

...I'm just trying to see both sides.

Once again, I do agree with you; that's the main reason I put the Wheel at Lughnasadh to begin with. However, I do think that in some sense the Wheel of Fortune is a wild card...

...I'm just playing the Devil's advocate here.


LOL! So really - you were looking for a lengthy debate without necessarily any conclusion.
Ah well - I haven't the gumption or knowledge to engage in debate successfully. I presume you've asked in the AT Kabbalah section to entice some more suitable people into your game? :)

Happy festive season.
 

JackofWands

LOL! So really - you were looking for a lengthy debate without necessarily any conclusion.

Ahem, well, perhaps a bit. I have a tendency to overanalyze things without ever actually settling on one side of a debate. Part of it is that I just enjoy the discourse; part is that I'm worried about being too hasty and rushing to lock myself into a closed worldview that will stifle in the long term.

I've been giving the issue more thought over the course of today. The Sun at Litha and Wheel at Lughnasadh definitely make sense--especially if we consider what sources like the Order of Bards, Ovates, & Druids have to say about practices on the respective festivals. (At Lughnasadh, they actually specifically incorporate the imagery of the turning wheel into their rituals.)

But then on the other side of things, the sun rules Leo in Western astrology (unless I'm horribly misremembering, which I admit is a possibility), so it seems acceptable and even appropriate to move that card to the festival that takes place during the Sun in Leo. That would put the masculine force of the Sun opposite the feminine energy of Imbolc, which seems like a good balance in a vein with Venus and Mars being opposite each other.

With the altered Samhain/Yule, that would put the Magician (Mercury) opposite the World (Saturn); it seems fitting to have the card 1 and card 21 balancing each other on polar spokes of the Wheel, as well as the planets that have the shortest and longest orbits, respectively. The Wheel of Fortune (Jupiter) would be opposite the High Priestess (the moon). This is not as obvious a combination as the Sun and Moon would be, but I think it's interesting to contrast the outward-oriented material energies of Jupiter with the introspective emotional nature of the moon. It fits in a way with the Oak King/Holly King dichotomy characteristic of these two festivals.

But here I am again, talking to the world's end and not actually coming to any conclusions. Like I said at some point previously, I'm working with both systems simultaneously right now, and may eventually transition over to an altered one once I feel really comfortable with it. It's with extreme caution that I alter any tradition, even an invented one of my own that's only a few years in the making (as the spirit of Edmund Burke is strong within me), so I'm going to keep going back and forth like this for a while.

Ah well - I haven't the gumption or knowledge to engage in debate successfully. I presume you've asked in the AT Kabbalah section to entice some more suitable people into your game? :)

Happy festive season.

I actually have not brought this up in the Kabbalah subforum, for two reasons. First off, from what I've seen, very few of the people in the subforum seem to identify as pagan, and I wouldn't expect them to be too terribly interested in or familiar with applying Tarot to the Wheel of the Year if that's the case. (Then again, I'm not pagan, so who can really say?) And secondly, I have this terrible guilty feeling like I've been clogging up the subforum with inane questions. I may come to bringing this topic up in that part of AT eventually, but for now I think I'll give them a bit of a break and nag the people in Talking Tarot instead.

(Goodness gracious, on a read-through, that sounds terribly passive-aggressive. Sorry about that. It's much harder to convey the appropriate happy-go-lucky tone in writing without sounding resentful and snarky.)

Happy holidays to you as well.
 

Tanga

Tarot and the Wheel of the Year

re: looking for debate - Ahem, well, perhaps a bit.

...I've been giving the issue more thought over the course of today. The Sun at Litha and Wheel at Lughnasadh definitely make sense--especially if we consider what sources like the Order of Bards, Ovates, & Druids have to say about practices on the respective festivals. (At Lughnasadh, they actually specifically incorporate the imagery of the turning wheel into their rituals.)

Oh cool. ...Perhaps it is time for me to learn more about Druids...
They have a regular open evening at my favourite esoteric bookshop in central London (Treadwells, in Bloomsbury.). Thanks for the link.


I actually have not brought this up in the Kabbalah subforum, for two reasons. First off, from what I've seen, very few of the people in the subforum seem to identify as pagan

I heard this just recently - with some measure of disappointment. :) I'm Wiccan and
was wondering if subscribing would mean discovering more like-minds on-line here.


, and I wouldn't expect them to be too terribly interested in or familiar with applying Tarot to the Wheel of the Year if that's the case. (Then again, I'm not pagan, so who can really say?) And secondly, I have this terrible guilty feeling like I've been clogging up the subforum with inane questions. I may come to bringing this topic up in that part of AT eventually, but for now I think I'll give them a bit of a break and nag the people in Talking Tarot instead.

Lol - yes who can really say?. And what? - you? - 'clogging up the subforum with inane questions'? Really? :) :) :). But ah ...isn't that what a forum is for - so EVERYONE can get to talk and air views no matter how dumb they might seem? (she says with conviction) Repeatedly if needs be. I'm sure there's enough of us that if one set gets worn out by you - other's can take over.


(Goodness gracious, on a read-through, that sounds terribly passive-aggressive. Sorry about that. It's much harder to convey the appropriate happy-go-lucky tone in writing without sounding resentful and snarky.)

Happy holidays to you as well.

There you go apologising again. :)
Do you have any Tarot and Kabbalah buddies in-the-flesh whom you could bounce these ideas off? I smell some sense of frustration and/or isolation (welcome to the club - of sorts). I was in a group myself - but no longer, due to personal family and geographical circumstance. Now I keep my 'finger in' the social/intellectual pagan pie, mostly by attending seminars at the aforementioned favourite esoteric bookshop - and the occasional reading of news.
Social networks - I've found - have too much gossip and politics flying about for my liking.


But then on the other side of things, the sun rules Leo in Western astrology (unless I'm horribly misremembering, which I admit is a possibility), so it seems acceptable and even appropriate to move that card to the festival that takes place during the Sun in Leo. That would put the masculine force of the Sun opposite the feminine energy of Imbolc, which seems like a good balance in a vein with Venus and Mars being opposite each other.

With the altered Samhain/Yule, that would put the Magician (Mercury) opposite the World (Saturn); it seems fitting to have the card 1 and card 21 balancing each other on polar spokes of the Wheel, as well as the planets that have the shortest and longest orbits, respectively. The Wheel of Fortune (Jupiter) would be opposite the High Priestess (the moon). This is not as obvious a combination as the Sun and Moon would be, but I think it's interesting to contrast the outward-oriented material energies of Jupiter with the introspective emotional nature of the moon. It fits in a way with the Oak King/Holly King dichotomy characteristic of these two festivals.

Fascinating! And waaaay over my head. :)
 

JackofWands

Oh cool. ...Perhaps it is time for me to learn more about Druids...
They have a regular open evening at my favourite esoteric bookshop in central London (Treadwells, in Bloomsbury.). Thanks for the link.

Druids are a fun lot. And if you're looking for any background of Celtic mythology, their knowledge is unparalleled (except perhaps by the Celtic Recon community, but they don't love Wicca, so the OBAD is likely to be a more open community to you).

I heard this just recently - with some measure of disappointment. :) I'm Wiccan and
was wondering if subscribing would mean discovering more like-minds on-line here.

You may want to check out the Religion & Spirituality subforum (although as you've noted, it's only for subscribers). I don't know much about the religious demographic of AT as a whole, but I have no doubt that you'll be able to find people arty least who have similar beliefs to you in some respects.

And what? - you? - 'clogging up the subforum with inane questions'?

Your sarcasm wounds me deeply.

There you go apologising again. :)

You have no idea how powerfully I'm fighting the urge to tell you I'm sorry for that. What can I say? "Mea culpa" is my "hakuna matata".

Do you have any Tarot and Kabbalah buddies in-the-flesh whom you could bounce these ideas off? I smell some sense of frustration and/or isolation (welcome to the club - of sorts). I was in a group myself - but no longer, due to personal family and geographical circumstance.

My friend, you hit the nail on the head. I don't have any real-world contacts interested in Tarot or Western mysticism. A few friends know I read, but the best I can hope for is uninterested tolerance from them. Part of this is due to geographical circumstance, and pay off it is also that I tend to run in fairly atheistic or agnostic circles, which aren't generally a conducive environment for discussions of Tarot. For that, I really appreciate having the AT forum as a means of opening up a dialogue.

Fascinating! And waaaay over my head. :)

Sorry. (That word again; I can't help myself, I swear.) At some point along the line, I suppose I became a more esoteric reader. I hadn't thought of myself as such, but I definitely seem to use Kabbalah and astrology a bit more than a lot of the AT community in my Tarot work (even though I would never dream of claiming expertise in either). I suppose it's a side effect of isolation--I've had nothing to do with myself but read and study, and I've occasionally wandered into some heavier subjects.

It's amusing, though, because I wouldn't consider myself an astrologer or Kabbalist (that atheism once again). I came into both fields looking to expand and diversify my reading practice, but that's all I use them for, and in that sense, my knowledge of both is severely limited compared to that of a real practitioner.
 

jillkite

a book i really appreciated suggesting spreads for each point on the wheel of the year is 'Tarot for All Seasons'.
it's not exactly what you are talking about in this thread, but seems related enough to mention.
 

Tanga

Tarot and the Wheel of the Year

...You have no idea how powerfully I'm fighting the urge to tell you I'm sorry for that. What can I say? "Mea culpa" is my "hakuna matata".

OK - now that's just weird (thinking of the meaning of hakuna matata - and I come from a culture where that language is the national language so my understanding of it's use is closer to home than some). Or, you mean saying "I'm sorry" is just an automatic response for you? Which is cheeky because then that means it's meaningless. :)


My friend, you hit the nail on the head. I don't have any real-world contacts interested in Tarot or Western mysticism. A few friends know I read, but the best I can hope for is uninterested tolerance from them...

How boring. I commiserate.


At some point along the line, I suppose I became a more esoteric reader. I hadn't thought of myself as such, but I definitely seem to use Kabbalah and astrology a bit more than a lot of the AT community in my Tarot work (even though I would never dream of claiming expertise in either). I suppose it's a side effect of isolation--I've had nothing to do with myself but read and study, and I've occasionally wandered into some heavier subjects.

I hope to eventually get to this stage - as I would also like to expand my reading into these fields. And btw 'even though' and 'I would never dream' are cheeky insertions. :) (as in "me thinks you doth protest too much").


It's amusing, though, because I wouldn't consider myself an astrologer or Kabbalist (that atheism once again).

Oh I seeeeee... "I can't be that because I'm an atheist". How interesting.

And back on topic... That proverbial High Priestess seems to have a huge amount to instruct me on this Yule! (re: my present running self-reading in the 'Sacred Days of Yule - 2014' thread). From here-on anon, the High Priestess in branded into my thinking as the card that goes with Yule.
 

JackofWands

a book i really appreciated suggesting spreads for each point on the wheel of the year is 'Tarot for All Seasons'.
it's not exactly what you are talking about in this thread, but seems related enough to mention.

Thanks! I'll look for it. I've heard of the book before, but never had a chance to pick it up.

OK - now that's just weird (thinking of the meaning of hakuna matata - and I come from a culture where that language is the national language so my understanding of it's use is closer to home than some). Or, you mean saying "I'm sorry" is just an automatic response for you? Which is cheeky because then that means it's meaningless. :)

More the latter than the former. Alas, I do not speak Swahili (although I do speak Arabic, and the similarities between the two languages are sometimes rather striking), but I was referring to the concept more as a philosophy by which one lives one's life. In my case, the ruling philosophy is one of apologies.

And btw 'even though' and 'I would never dream' are cheeky insertions. :) (as in "me thinks you doth protest too much").

Cheeky though they may seem (somehow, I'm unable to avoid sounding sarcastic, no matter how earnest I am*), they're sincere. I'm bothered to no end by people who claim to be experts after reading a couple of books, and both of these fields are deep enough that I truly believe I'm splashing in the shallows with what I know. I like to make it clear up front that I'm not claiming to be some omniscient teacher descended from on high; I'm here to discuss Tarot, not to preach about it.

Oh I seeeeee... "I can't be that because I'm an atheist". How interesting.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this. It's not that atheism forbids me to believe in astrology or the metaphysical principles of the Kabbalah. Rather, the same path of reasoning that's led me to an atheistic stance on religion has also led me to a strong skepticism of these other fields. I find them very interesting on a metaphorical and symbolic level, but I don't believe either in a more literal sense, the same way I can read religious texts as valuable works of literature without necessarily believing the stories they present.

And the same way that I wouldn't consider myself a Christian theologian (even though I've read a lot on the subject), I wouldn't call myself an astrologer or Kabbalist. I see myself more as an outsider in these communities, analyzing the principles at play in the systems they present and applying the structure of those symbols in my personal (secularized) worldview. I can talk about the Eden myth as a metaphor for the loss of innocence (among other, more complicated interpretations), for example, but being able to do so--and even wanting to do so--doesn't make me Christian.

Part of my distancing myself from these communities is that I've always felt it would be disrespectful of me towards the actual members thereof were I to pretend to membership or expertise. I think that comparing my casual interest too closely with something that for many people is an integral part of their worldviews and daily lives is, well, diminishing the value of their beliefs.

Does this make sense?

And back on topic... That proverbial High Priestess seems to have a huge amount to instruct me on this Yule! (re: my present running self-reading in the 'Sacred Days of Yule - 2014' thread). From here-on anon, the High Priestess in branded into my thinking as the card that goes with Yule.

Excellent! I'm so pleased to hear it. Part of me still wants to cling to the World as a Yule card, but the more time I sit with the High Priestess, the more comfortable I am with her for this season.

Looking at this Tarot Wheel from a more Wiccan theological perspective, it's interesting to note that the High Priestess, the Empress, and the Mother cards of Imbolc are all grouped together on one side of the Wheel; you could parallel these the the Wiccan Maiden/Mother/Crone Triple Goddess common to the Wiccan dualistic tradition, if not in that order. (Personally, even though the cards at Imbolc are referred to as "Mother" cards, I would be inclined to think of that festival more as the Maiden; it's the very beginnings of new life, coming out of winter. Ostara is much more motherly to me.)

It's also interesting that, when you add in the World, you have a gendered division of the Wheel. The summery/light half of the year is filled with the cards I would consider more masculine: the Magician, the Wheel of Fortune**, the Tower, and the Sun. The winter/dark half of the year is occupied by the feminine cards (what with the little Kabbalistic jig we did at Imbolc, I feel safe labeling the Fool, the Hanged Man, and Judgment as such). I think I've mentioned the Celtic dichotomy of the Oak King and the Holly King somewhere previously in this thread (have I?), but looking at the Wheel this way allows for a much more direct connection to the Wiccanate myth of the Goddess and God cycling through the seasons.

Food for thought.

*There I go again.

**I could also see how this card might be considered feminine. The imagery of the Wheel is very much linked with the Greek Moirae, who were sisters, after all. The classical wheel of fate is a spinning wheel more often than not, and fate itself is consistently seen as a woman in Western mythology. However, the card itself is linked to Jupiter, a more masculine planet in astrology. Plus, the imagery on the card usually deals with the rise and fall of a man over the course of his life. To me, the Wheel of Fortune is distinctly masculine.
 

Tanga

Tarot and the Wheel of the Year

"Tarot for all Seasons" - yes it sounds familiar... Must have been on my "should I buy this book?" list at some point. ...or...I may even have it somewhere...
Thankyou jillkite.


...More the latter than the former. Alas, I do not speak Swahili (although I do speak Arabic, and the similarities between the two languages are sometimes rather striking),

That is because Swahili is a Bantu language with Arabic added (Muslim influence).


...but I was referring to the concept more as a philosophy by which one lives one's life. In my case, the ruling philosophy is one of apologies.

Hmm - in the manner of "accept that you are wrong - even when you know that you are not" - for the purpose of powerful communication?


I'm here to discuss Tarot, not to preach about it.

Amen to that.


re: atheist comment - Not entirely sure what you mean by this. It's not that atheism forbids me to believe in astrology or the metaphysical principles of the Kabbalah. Rather, the same path of reasoning that's led me to an atheistic stance on religion has also led me to a strong skepticism of these other fields...etc.

Ah OK - I get it. You were just making sure that readers are not mistaken into thinking that you are their long-lost 'Kabbalist believer' brother and so forth.


...(Personally, even though the cards at Imbolc are referred to as "Mother" cards, I would be inclined to think of that festival more as the Maiden; it's the very beginnings of new life, coming out of winter. Ostara is much more motherly to me.)

Agreed.


It's also interesting that, when you add in the World, you have a gendered division of the Wheel. The summery/light half of the year is filled with the cards I would consider more masculine: the Magician, the Wheel of Fortune**, the Tower, and the Sun. The winter/dark half of the year is occupied by the feminine cards (what with the little Kabbalistic jig we did at Imbolc, I feel safe labelling the Fool, the Hanged Man, and Judgment as such). I think I've mentioned the Celtic dichotomy of the Oak King and the Holly King somewhere previously in this thread (have I?), but looking at the Wheel this way allows for a much more direct connection to the Wiccanate myth of the Goddess and God cycling through the seasons.

I shall ruminate on this. (yes you have mentioned Oak and Holly).


(somehow, I'm unable to avoid sounding sarcastic, no matter how earnest I am*)
*There I go again.

Bwahahahahaha! ...er...sorry (oops it's catching). I'm laughing because I'm often in danger of this myself.


**I could also see how this card might be considered feminine. The imagery of the Wheel is very much linked with the Greek Moirae, who were sisters, after all. The classical wheel of fate is a spinning wheel more often than not, and fate itself is consistently seen as a woman in Western mythology. However, the card itself is linked to Jupiter, a more masculine planet in astrology. Plus, the imagery on the card usually deals with the rise and fall of a man over the course of his life. To me, the Wheel of Fortune is distinctly masculine.

What about the rise and fall of woman over her life?
I don't see it as either gender. Perhaps same with Judgement.
(I love your footnotes ("ludicrous") by-the-way).
 

JackofWands

That is because Swahili is a Bantu language with Arabic added (Muslim influence).

Indeed. People tend to forget just how vast the spread of the Islamic empires was.

Hmm - in the manner of "accept that you are wrong - even when you know that you are not" - for the purpose of powerful communication?

It's really not nearly as nuanced as that. More the idea that when I encounter a problem, the way I resolve it is by apologizing.

Ah OK - I get it. You were just making sure that readers are not mistaken into thinking that you are their long-lost 'Kabbalist believer' brother and so forth.

In a manner of speaking, yes.

What about the rise and fall of woman over her life?
I don't see it as either gender. Perhaps same with Judgement.

I was referring to the specific image; a lot of decks I've seen have three figures on the Wheel: a young man rising, a king sitting atop it, and an old man falling down the other side. While I agree that the meaning of the card applies just as well to the cycle of a woman's life, the image of the card I have in my head is definitely more masculine.

Plus, the four beasts that often appear on this card are representative of the four Gospels, part of a distinctly masculine monotheistic Christian tradition. The Gospels were written by men about a man, and to me, that reinforces the male-oriented imagery of the card.

I can understand the view that the Wheel of Fortune is gender-neutral, and I can see how it makes sense, but it's definitely not how I think about that particular card. The same goes for Judgment; to me, the imagery of resurrection is closely linked with the idea of giving birth (if for a second time), so I think of this card as feminine in nature. It's another one that could go many ways; it's connected to the element of fire, which is masculine without a doubt, and is linked in with the same masculine monotheistic theological tradition that I used to justify my claim about the Wheel of Fortune's masculinity.

Part of my view on this matter is without doubt linked to the Mother Letters in Kabbalah. Before I started to study Kabbalah, I thought of both the Fool and the Hanged Man as masculine, and now I would honestly be inclined to call them feminine, at least in my personal practice.

And actually, I think that emphasizing the gendering of the cards as a matter of personal practice is very important. After all, this division of the cards into masculine/feminine energies is very much based on my personal reasoning, although it's influenced by Kabbalah and astrology. I use it for myself, but I don't think it's more or less valid than systems other people might come up with. It's a matter of what works for one person or another.

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you on this one. I've been a bit busy of late with the holidays and my family. Have a good one!
 

Tanga

...It's really not nearly as nuanced as that...
...In a manner of speaking, yes.

Lol. You really just can't say yes or no. :) - you debate lover you.
Knight of Swords.


I was referring to the specific image; a lot of decks I've seen have three figures on the Wheel: a young man rising, a king sitting atop it, and an old man falling down the other side.
...Plus, the four beasts that often appear on this card are representative of the four Gospels, part of a distinctly masculine monotheistic Christian tradition. The Gospels were written by men about a man, and to me, that reinforces the male-oriented imagery of the card.

Yes I figured you were. And I was just saying that when I think of the mechanics those cards portray - that's how the gender falls for me personally.
- Personal practice as you say.

Have a good one!

:) Very thankyou - you to.
I leave you to go grab a piece of chocolate panetone before it's all scoffed.
:)