Leaving the querent with bad news

nisaba

Ace said:
After reading and contributing to this thread by empress_woo_woo http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=228886 I got to thinking.

We really have a responsibility as readers to find GOOD NEWS in a reading or at least comfort for bad readings.

It's not about "good news" or "bad news". The client isn't a passive well of stillness while their life happens around them.

A reading, at least in my experience, doesn't do hard-and-fast predictions - our lives are not set in stone, we have freedom of choice. That's what being a conscious human, as opposed to a lower-order animal with a small brain, is about.

No, readings are about finding the opportunities that the client might face, and how to get the most out of them (in a "good" reading) or finding the risks and pitfalls a client might face and finding the best way for tehm to move forward to minimise the negative impact on their life or avoid it altogether (in a "bad" reading"). In a way, "good readings" can be bad for a client, if they think all they have to do is sit back and wait for the good stuff to unfold, while so-called "bad readings" are ALWAYS good in my experience: it is lovely to see a client leave, relieved or even delighted with the options they have for changing things around them.

ravenest

EyeAmEye said:
Why do you necessarily believe it is a responsibility of the reader to find good news? Don't you think that mindset is automatically creating an interpreting bias?

The only real responsibility a reader should have is a neutral mindset when reading. If the reading indicates the good, you give the good. If it indicates the bad, you give the bad. It is not anyone's responsibility to search for one or the other if it isn't there, nor feel the need to do so.

If you feel you should look for the good, then by all means do so. By there is no overlying imperative to do so.

I agree with you BUT ... I see two issues here;

1. Readers should not try to put a gloss on the reading - please remove the rose coloured glasses.

2. Every problem has some type of solution, or at least a way to minimise the damages - I believe the same applies to the information contained in Tarot cards and a reading.

Grizabella

EyeAmEye said:
What's your point?

If the bomb needs to be dropped, you drop it. Dropping bombs cannot always be delivered in a rosy fashion.

I understand the desire to coddle someone when delivering bad news. The downside to this is a growing inability for people to take the negative in life. Every cloud does not have a silver lining, witty phrase notwithstanding.

To give an example, I had a friend ask for a reading once regarding a business idea. The idea itself was, for lack of a better term, stunk. The proposed business partners were completely unreliable. The reality of the situation was only the hand of God could have brought a positive outcome. I informed him of such as flatly as I possibly could. The only positive outcome would have been to abandon the idea altogether.

Fast forward a few months, he didn't heed the advice, the business idea crashed and burned, he lost some money, had a fallout with his partners. Came back asking me to read on why it failed...

I felt no compulsion to find the positive in a situation that had no positive.

I don't think anyone is talking about coddling the sitter or cushioning the bad news with frippery----I see people saying that you don't just drop the bomb, smile, beckon the next in line and say "next" to your sitter. You try to use tact, understanding and compassion. If you're not doing that, then I'd be checking to see why you choose to read the cards.

As for predicting the future---of course that's what you're doing. You're saying "the cards say if you do this, then this will happen". Everything is in the future. This moment and the past are in the other direction.

And has anyone ever considered that what we're seeing (those of us who choose to tell fortunes) is what will happen as a result of the querents own actions that they're going to take no matter what we "counsel" them to do or not do? I don't know if I'm making this very clear, but say John Doe sits with you and you tell him, "I don't predict the future. You're in control of your own life" or "I don't predict the future because so much can change between then and now" but yet if you had used the cards to tell his fortune, the cards would have told you what he will end up with at the end of any actions he takes or doesn't take.

I probably didn't make clear what I mean. I'll try again if I'm mistaken.

I'm coming back to say I think I've got it----when I tell the future for a person, I don't use the easy out of "but things can change so I don't read the future". What I see in the cards is what will ultimately happen. Because I'm also seeing ahead to know that no matter what advice I or anyone else gives to the contrary, the person will cause or choose that future to come about. Does that make more sense?

ravenest

Thats all fine in theory ... the thing is that in actuality, according to testimony in quiet a few threads here (and my own experience) it doesnt work out that way. It can be wrong regardless.

And ideas like; it might still happen, you did something that changed things (and my old time favourite !

; ) the reading was right but the future changed - dont really cut it.

MagsStardustBlack

Leaving the querent with bad news.....

In psychotherapy a contract is delivered verbally to the client. It is in place to safe guard both the client and counsellor against harm, breaches of boundaries and it is in place to ensure the client understands work is about to take place, enables them to understand and concent, and to engage in the session with equal responsibility.

Having said that. I believe a similar exchange of understanding should be clarified at the start of a tarot reading session. In concenting to participate the querent needs to accept their own responsibility for the nature of the process and what information might be received by them from the reader be it good or as in the op's question bad. It should be stated clearly at onset, that they feel safe enough and strong enough to proceed with the reading and take away with them whatever insights are given.

People have to be encouraged or at least assumed to be autonomous.

Grizabella

ravenest said:
Thats all fine in theory ... the thing is that in actuality, according to testimony in quiet a few threads here (and my own experience) it doesnt work out that way. It can be wrong regardless.

So how have you managed to keep track of every person you've ever read for? I'd love to have your system so I could do that, too.

And ideas like; it might still happen, you did something that changed things (and my old time favourite ! ; ) the reading was right but the future changed - dont really cut it.

I didn't say that. Go back and read again. I know you're avidly an opponent of the idea that Tarot can predict the future. That's obvious by now. But I'm equally avidly of the other opinion. And---according to testimony in many threads and MY own experience, it does work out that way.

I am not the one who says, "you did something that changed things", so if you think I am, you've not read my posts very well. That's the out that people take who do read the future (see my sig) and are afraid they'll be wrong.

I'm not going to stick around for arguments about all this. I'm way behind in making my Christmas gifts. Ravenest, you and I will just have to agree to disagree. Both of us are set in cement in our opinions.

tarotbear

gregory said:
Not one person has said "use no tact". But I still disagree with you - I think saying "sort out some of the difficulties" goes too far towards "we can make this sort of OK" and on occasion - we can't. And the sitter needs to realise that. If the cards actually said 'All The Members Of Your Family Will DIE When The Hindenburg Tries To Land In New Jersey'- don't just stomp off, sure, but equally don't say "never mind, it'll work out in the end." That does the sitter no favours.

You are all taking what I said here 'as examples' since we have no real statement here off of which to discuss - and blowing them way the f*ck out of proportion to support YOUR tunnel-vision'd ends, rather than take them as a simple, 'we need to have something to say here' discussion, to which I said we always need to use TACT, and to which I admit the Hindenburg analogy is a but extreme but it is an analogy, does anyone understand ANALOGY?

Dropping out of this discussion ... the sharks are out and hungry this Yule eve and can have their feeding frenzy without me. My original statement says :

Unfortunately - delivering 'bad news' is part of reading Tarot ... if it wasn't - then all 78 cards would be The World card.

EyeAmEye

Grizabella said:
I don't think anyone is talking about coddling the sitter or cushioning the bad news with frippery----I see people saying that you don't just drop the bomb, smile, beckon the next in line and say "next" to your sitter. You try to use tact, understanding and compassion. If you're not doing that, then I'd be checking to see why you choose to read the cards.

I never once said nor even implied you drop a bomb, smile and beckon the next in line. That was a misquote from someone else in this thread. All I suggested in my original comment in this thread is that if there is bad in a reading and nothing particularly good, it is not anyone's responsibility to FIND positive where there isn't.

As to the rest of your post, I understand it perfectly, have considered it often, and think that happens a lot more than most would assume.

EyeAmEye

ravenest said:
I agree with you BUT ... I see two issues here;

1. Readers should not try to put a gloss on the reading - please remove the rose coloured glasses.

2. Every problem has some type of solution, or at least a way to minimise the damages - I believe the same applies to the information contained in Tarot cards and a reading.

1. Agreed

2. Agreed. There is always a way to mitigate potential damage of a situation. However, that is not the same as looking for something positive, as the lesser of the evils can still be quite negative. Just like the example reading I gave earlier in the thread, my suggestion to my friend was to abandon the awful business idea. I don't see that as being a positive, since the result would still have been failure.

ravenest

Grizabella;

Its not that, I just dont mind a look at and into ideas people put up ... or reasonable analysis or shooting down of my own ideas. Its a bout the logic and internal consistencies of anyone's ideas including my own. I prefer not just to say ... we don't see eye to eye and walk away.

Besides, there seems a misconception involved as well (and besides I have no presents to wrap up

)

Grizabella said:
So how have you managed to keep track of every person you've ever read for? I'd love to have your system so I could do that, too.

I haven't. Why would I need to ? Why did you assume that was relevant ? This comment was in response to a simple statement I made saying; " according to testimony in quiet a few threads here (and my own experience) it doesnt work out that way. It can be wrong regardless."

I am not saying anything that needs me (or anyone else) to " keep track of every person you've ever read for " .... I dont understand why that is thrown in ?

I am saying sometimes (and for some many times) the reading is wrong. Actually, if you are claiming that your readings are never wrong (and that seems implied due to what you wrote about your future predictions are about the actual outcome, regardless of any in between changing dynamics) then you would be the one that would have to demonstrate a track record. I am not claiming any such thing.

I have written it 3 times lately here ... but I will again as you asked;

I read by presenting a general situation, the querant may or may not be able to relate a specific event in their life to it. If so that gives us a focus to go ahead and use the reading advice for that situation. if they cant relate an event, it is read as general advice or about something that may eventuate. Sometimes they came back and said that something related did eventuate and they were able to use the advice in the reading to help them. Not everyone came back and gave me feedback, so I dont know what happened for the others. people didnt come back and say "That reading was useless and I couldnt apply it to anything. " They may be out there thinking that ... I dont know.

Grizabella said:
I didn't say that. Go back and read again.

Okay, I did. Now you go back and read mine again . I didnt say you did that did I ? I was referring to what was by others .... if I was meaning you said it, I would have quoted it or said 'you said' ... I was talking about some of the things some people come up with that try to explain why events changed after the prediction.

But if I read your posts clearly, you seem to be saying your predictions are after and include any of the possible changes to predict the future as it actually will happen - and sorry if I miss-interpreted here ... but after all, if I did, you dont seem that clear about it yourself - even after an edit.

Grizabella said:
I know you're avidly an opponent of the idea that Tarot can predict the future.

No ... I dont believe I have ever said that, I have as many wacky stories about that as anyone ... a bit hard to be in the biz for so long without seeing that. I do not believe tarot is reliable for predicting the future though. Many recent problems ( about 'why is tarot wrong' ) people seem to have is they think every time, anyone should be able to predict the future if the declare they are a tarot reader and can do it. Some time it hits and sometimes it misses.

But to me, I dont focus on that as it is immaterial . One sure way of knowing what will actually happen is just living and doing it. One has to open the box at some stage. A reading IMO offers advice about how to manipulate the outcome and juggle and manage any necessities.

Grizabella said:
That's obvious by now. But I'm equally avidly of the other opinion. And---according to testimony in many threads and MY own experience, it does work out that way.

WEll, that is just setting up adversarial camps. I have seen some say it does at times and doesnt at other times , or it CAN at times and doesnt seem able to at times.

I have never seen such a clear division of opposites here in my perception of the discussions ( with one or two exceptions) .

Grizabella said:
I am not the one who says, "you did something that changed things", so if you think I am, you've not read my posts very well. That's the out that people take who do read the future (see my sig) and are afraid they'll be wrong.

If you dont do that, why are you accepting it? I wasnt refering to you but you have taken it on. Actually I am offering up some ideas people have had and accessing their validity ... I am not actually on about people as such .

Grizabella said:
I'm not going to stick around for arguments about all this.
I'm way behind in making my Christmas gifts. Ravenest, you and I will just have to agree to disagree. Both of us are set in cement in our opinions.

Was that a Christmas raspberry ? Thanks for my present (and no need to wrap it up

)

Maybe later when the Christmas stress is over and you come back to read this, you might get a clearer pic of what I am on about ?

Leaving the querent with bad news

nisaba

ravenest

Grizabella

ravenest

MagsStardustBlack

Grizabella

tarotbear

EyeAmEye

EyeAmEye

ravenest