Strongly aspected? Afflicted?

MareSaturni

Minderwiz said:
Our posts crossed, but you seem to use predictive methods the same way that I do. Selecting for definite and specific issues rather than as some general description of the future.

Yes. In the past I have been guilty of "overusing" my oracles with frequent readings for myself and with very vague questions, that ultimately only made me confused and pretty much ruined the whole experience of reading for a while. Now I have learnt

. And of course I never had the intention of repeating the mistake with Astrology!

Minderwiz said:
Modern Astrology sees the chart as something of a map of the mind. We need to see the chart as a whole to understand the drives and motivations of a person and their perceptions of the outside world. Contradictions and conflicts are seen as giving some indication of the drives and motivational reactions of the person.

Traditional Astrology sees the chart as more than this. Yes it shows the intrinsic temperament and behaviour of the person but it also shows not only their perception of the real world but also the real world itself, in so far as it affects that person. Thus the ruler of the tenth does not so much show their perception of their mother as their mother herself and her interaction with them. That is there's less emphasis on the depth psychology and more emphasis on reality (and I stress the relative terms here, I'm not saying that Modern approaches have nothing to do with reality or that Traditional approaches are devoid of psychology).

I like that about the Traditional Astrology... sometimes I have the impression that the books I have focus a lot on the characteristic of the person, but do not show that what the same planets and aspects could represent in terms of events and situations. From what you have told us, Traditional Astrology has a better way of more balanced view of the chart, not so focused on the individual, but also analyzing what surrounds him. "No man is an island". We are a result of both our potentials and temperament and the reality that surrounds us.

I have been looking for books on Traditional Astrology here where I live, but so far I have not been lucky. I am unable to buy it from abroad from the time being, so I am relying on books about Modern/Psychological Astrology.

dadsnook2000 said:
Once we start to determine rulerships, exaltations, and other adjunct modifications to each planet, things become complex. Rather than start off a chart reading with all of this baggage to contend with why not do it the simple way?

For example, MERCURY represents how you communicate, write, local travel preferences and activities, your thoughts and how you both perceive people/events and how you organize facts and memories. It's house provides a focus area of life where these thoughts and communications are emphasized, the sign might suggest the tone or style you apply to expressing these Mercury activities.

Then go on to each of the other planets. Just using these statements will provide a fairly clear idea of the core meanings of the chart as a whole, of you as a whole person. Where there is contraction, there is a personality wrinkle that makes you unique and which you will find a way to fold into your life.

Note, we haven't talked of aspects yet, nor how close or loose they may be. We haven't talked about all of the classical and medeival twists and turns that were used to refine and expand a chart's meaning to overcome the presence of only a few planets that could be worked with. Simple is the way to start. Dave

Thank you Dave! I think I'll do this exercise with the example charts I have, only the basic Planet/House/Sign thing, plus essential dignities. When I am comfortable with it, I'll start incorporating the major aspects.

I have no idea what the medieval twists and turns are, I am still in search for a good book about the History of Astrology! :laugh:

Minderwiz said:
At a more serious level, eventually you will need to make a decision about what levels of complexity to accept and which complexities to reject. That will be influenced not only by the quantity of complexity you want to allow but also the quality - that is some complexities may appeal to your approach others may just seem like making the simple become difficult to no good purpose. I think Dave and I would agree on keeping things as simple as is consistent with getting the results you are looking for, or are at least willing to settle for. We might disagree on which complexities to choose and incorporate but that's not really a major issue for you, as you have to settle on your own approach and this will change and develop over time. So nice small steps to begin with but once you are happy with those steps, then is the time to consider adding some complexity. Note I said consider, there will come a point sooner or later when the answer to that consideration will be to reject the additional complexity. You might well end up simply content that you've got the basics and not wish to go further, or that you are able to read a natal chart to your satisfaction, whilst recognising that there's a lot more that you could incorporate if only you had the time and inclination. It's not an all or nothing scenario.

I want to learn as much as possible! I'd like to learn enough to interpret a chart & its complexities with some confidence, and to be able to do transits and progressions. Above all, I wish to know enough in order to choose what I want to incorporate in my practice, and not discard anything out of ignorance.

I understood that Dave's simplification works as a way to learn better the nature of the planets and houses, which is the knowledge that helps you to understand well the aspects and others things. I did not assume that a decent analysis of a chart could be limited to it. I suppose I should keep it simple until I'm comfortable with the Houses and Planets and how they work

I know the basic part well, but I still need to 'ingrain' this knowledge into my brain, so it'll become more 'intuitive' and I don't have to spend 5 minutes recalling this information every time I look at a chart. But it takes study and practice to develop this mental agility, I guess. I think that some simplification will help me with this part, as long as I don't limit myself to it.

dadsnook2000

Something to keep in mind

Planets can be "read" or viewed through a variety of lenses. A few examples follow and address feelings, actions, situations, career. These are partial listing cut-and-pasted from collections of writings --- mine and others. The point is that any factor can be viewed through an perspective. One could modify these partial lists to look at health, travel preferences, their housing and neighborhood, foods. Highly capable astrologers do these things automatically, shifting gears to meet client's questions or their own interests.

Do we memorize this stuff? No. We just assimilate it over time and create it within larger patterns of understanding while adjusting it to the moment. As Minderwiz noted, this is an artform, not a science. By the way, the two-letter designations stand for planets which are in combination with another planet in some way. Dave

Feelings:
Sun: Happiness, Hope,
Moon: Emotional needs, Infantile, Satisfaction, Dreamer; NE-MO, Empathetic; NE-MO,
Gloomy; MO-NE
Mercury: Amorality; PL-ME,
Venus: Affection, Affinity, Charm, Enjoyment, Intimacy, Joy, Eroticism; VE-PL, Jealousy; VE-PL
Mars: Hate, hatred,
Jupiter: Flamboyancy; JU-SU
Saturn: Annoyance, Apprehension, Bitter, Failure, Frustration, feeling Guilty, Envy; ME-SA,
Fearful; SA-NE
Uranus: Frenzied,
Neptune: Adoration, Ecstasy, Enchantment/ed, Martyrdom, Fantasy; NE-MO
Pluto: Anguish, Emotional abuse, Infatuation; PL-NE

Actions, Activities
Sun: Accomplishment; SU-SA,
Moon: Instinctive behavior; MO-MA
Mercury:
Venus: Acquisitions; VE-JU,
Mars: Action, Initiation (starting), Accidents; MA-UR, Accusation; PL-MA, Assault; MA-PL,
Crudeness; MA-UR
Jupiter: Idealism,
Saturn: Backwardness, Damage, Confinement; NE-SA
Uranus: Drastic Action, Adultery,
Neptune: Activities, dishonest, Drug usage, Hallucination, Indiscretion, Lethargic, Bribery; PL-NE
Pluto: Activities, socially taboo, Incest, Activities, covert; PL-NE, Blackmail; PL-NE …emotional; PL,
Brutality; MA-PL,

Situations, environments
Sun: Fame, Fatherhood; SU-SA, Government affairs; SU-SA, Male company; SU-MA
Moon: Domesticity, Family, family influence, Habit patterns, Maternity, Female company; MO-VE,
Masses/groups (lg); MO-PL
Mercury: Information exchange,
Venus: Engaged (romantic), Love, personal, Love affairs; VE-SU
Mars: Discord, among Enemies, Exercise, exertion; MA-PL,
Jupiter: having Faith; JU-SU,
Saturn: Elderly company, Insolvency, Limits, perceiving, Hard work, labor; SA-MA
Uranus: Divorce, Groups, Humanitarian work, Love, humanitarian; UR-NE
Neptune: Illness, mental; NE, Intoxication, Hospital care; NE-MO
Pluto: Immortality related, Homicide; PL-MA

Career, Avocation
Sun: Celebrity, Goldsmith, jeweler, Leaders, Royalty, Parents; SU-MO, Statesman; SU-SA,
Moon: Antique dealers, Cooks, Housekeeping, Meteorologists, weather, Night workers, Real Estate agents,
Mercury: Accountant, Agents, Bookkeepers, Cab-drivers, Draftsman, Servants, Teller, Tenant, Advertising agents; ME-JU, Busineesmen/women; ME-MO, Craftsman, ME-MA, Lab technicians; UR-ME, Office manager; ME-SA, Radio/TV workers; ME-UR, Scholar; ME-JU, Telephone workers; ME-UR, Travel agent; ME-JU, Writers; ME-MO
Venus: Art dealers, Beauticians, Buyer, Ecology related, Landscapers, Partner, Retail occupations, Surveyors, Biologists; VE-NE, Cashiers; VE-ME, Credit Manager; VE-PL, Musicians; VE-NE,
Tailors; VE-ME, Therapists, physical; VE-MA,
Mars: Barbers, Guard, security, Litigant, Military members, Physical Educator, Butcher; MA-PL, Carpenter; MA-SA, Farm workers; SA-MA, Killer; MA-PL, Police officers; MA-PL,
Sportscaster; MA-JU, Surgeons; MA-PL,
Jupiter: Academic, Advertising, Advocate, Attorney, Bishop, clergy, Exploration, Legislators, Ambassadors; JU-ME, Brokers; JU-ME, Leaders (religious); JU-PL,
Saturn: Enforcement agencies, Landlords, Plumber; SA-PL,
Uranus: Aerospace tech/engineering, Electricians, electronics, Anarchist; UR-NE, Scientists; UR-SA, Space workers; UR-(NE),
Neptune: Film industry; NE-plus, Bartenders; NE-MO, Mediums; NE-MO, Pharmacist; NE-ME,
Fishing industry; NE-MO,
Pluto: CIA-secret organizations, Embalmers, Gangsters, criminal, Investigators, Investors, Judges,Junk dealer, Renovators, Convicts; PL-SA, Funeral related; PL-(SA),

Minderwiz

dadsnook2000 said:
Do we memorize this stuff? No.

Phew!!! you had me worried for a minute

Dadsnook2000 said:
....the two-letter designations stand for planets which are in combination with another planet in some way. Dave

There's a very important point there - many things, places, people, ideas and concepts can be signified by more than one planet because they combine some of the characteristics of those planets. For example a black phone has elements of Saturn - the colour black - and elements of Mercury - it's a communications device. It might also have elements of Venus - it's a decorative object or fashion accessory. Which of these is the most important will vary depending on the context in which we are considering them. If we are using the phone for ringing someone or sending a text, then it's clearly primarily a Mercury object. If we're using it to show off to our friends, then it's primarily a Venus object and if we're collecting black objects then it's primarily a Saturn object. However in all cases the primary nature does not remove or replace the others. Thus you will find different planets cited as ruling the same object in the literature.

In his list of Venus 'things' Dave left out relationships which is one of the first things most students of Modern Astrology would have suggested (that and young women, wives and girlfriends), I actually think his list is right here. Venus is not primarily concerned with relationships as such but they are implicit in a lot of Venus activities. I think the modern association with relationships lies in that simplification of first house = Aries, leading to seventh House = Libra (and therefore Venus). I've never seen Venus listed as 'relationships' in the traditional texts. Her nature stems from her role as the 'lesser fortune, author of mirth and jollity', to quote Lilly. In short, Venus is to do with pleasure and the way we take our pleasure. Venus joys in the fifth House which is the house of Venusian pursuits.

Quite a few of the things Dave attributes to Neptune, I'd attribute to Venus but again it comes down to what is the primary nature of the item being considered in context. Is the film industry concerned primarily with illusion, deception and fantasy - the modern view of Neptune, or is it primarily concerned with entertainment and pleasure. Clearly that's not an easy question to answer. Much of the entertainment and pleasure lies in the suspension of disbelief and the audience identifying with characters and plot. But is the audience really deceived or taken in by the illusion? Well clearly some people believe that characters from soap operas are real, so there's an argument that it is Neptunian. Most people, though are aware that Harry Potter is a fictional character and that Hogwarts doesn't really exist (though my wife is still recovering from that news LOL).

The same argument could be held over the function of a bartender. Inns, bars, pubs and taverns are Venus places where people go for pleasure and take that not only in drinking beer or wine but also in playing games such as darts, pool, bar billiards, dominoes or even joining pub teams for quizzes, football or (in a pub I recently visited) morris dancing - all being Venus activities. So one could argue that a bartender is a venusian occupation - primarily helping to provide pleasure. But what of those who go to the bar to get drunk, is the bartender then a purveyor of drugs (alcohol) designed to dim and mislead the senses?

My point here is that it's not always easy to decide which planet rules something - but thinking about the issue and the contex does help get a clearer view of what a planet can represent through its intrinsic nature.

MareSaturni

Thank you, Dave and Minderwiz, for your inestimable help!

dadsnook2000 said:
Highly capable astrologers do these things automatically, shifting gears to meet client's questions or their own interests.

I find that fascinating! To develop a skill to such degree!

dadsnook2000 said:
Do we memorize this stuff? No. We just assimilate it over time and create it within larger patterns of understanding while adjusting it to the moment. As Minderwiz noted, this is an artform, not a science.

Whew! I was about to buy book about mnemonic techniques to memorize lists.

Joking aside, memorizing is just the first part of learning. You only begin to get good at something when you incorporate the concepts and understand them as fluid ideas, and not rigid ones. Many factors can determine how a planet will manifest its potential, so to speak, so to limit them to couple of keywords is to discard some of the most interesting - and complex - interplay between elements in a chart. In a sense, it is similar to card reading. If you simply memorize the meanings, without assimilating them overtime, it'll be hard for you to connect the cards - specially when two apparently opposed ideas show up in your 3-card reading!

Minderwiz said:
My point here is that it's not always easy to decide which planet rules something - but thinking about the issue and the contex does help get a clearer view of what a planet can represent through its intrinsic nature.

Wow, I LIKE you examples of how the planets may represent similar things, with differing points of view perhaps (cinema: illusion (neptune) or fun (venus)?). In fact I was happy to learn that Venus is not all about love, because it tires me to constantly read that people with Venus in Capricorn (like moi) marry for money and are emotionally distant (older book were full of these ideas, LOL!). :laugh:

I think the hard part is to assimilate the more basic characteristic of each planet, and from there develop a more open and less rigid view. Once these planets are 'alive' elements in front of you, and not static definition, it's easy to understand how they play together.

However I confess I can feel the pressure rising inside my skull, lol!

But I love that, I like these complexities, they attract me and don't scare me. I will keep studying in order to eventually reach the same astrological finesse you and Dave have. I suppose this will take some years.

Thank you for all the help you both have been giving me, it is much appreciated!

prudence

Marina said:
Wow, I LIKE you examples of how the planets may represent similar things, with differing points of view perhaps (cinema: illusion (neptune) or fun (venus)?). In fact I was happy to learn that Venus is not all about love, because it tires me to constantly read that people with Venus in Capricorn (like moi) marry for money and are emotionally distant (older book were full of these ideas, LOL!).

Hey, don't feel so bad, when I tried to learn some astrology a few years ago (and got a lot of incredible help here in this forum from Minderwiz and Dadsnook) I came away from some sources (from the internet or in books) wondering how I had managed to live to such an advanced age without having become a heroin addict!

(my Venus is in Pisces in the 12th House...along with my Sun and north node)

I am still plodding along at beginner level in my astro studies though...it is so complex and layered and....deep. But I almost always read the threads in here, well, at least the ones I can semi-understand.

Good luck in your learning.

MareSaturni

prudence said:
Hey, don't feel so bad, when I tried to learn some astrology a few years ago (and got a lot of incredible help here in this forum from Minderwiz and Dadsnook) I came away from some sources (from the internet or in books) wondering how I had managed to live to such an advanced age without having become a heroin addict! (my Venus is in Pisces in the 12th House...along with my Sun and north node)

LOL! I have Sun in the 12th House too, I suppose we should both be schizophrenics? (Dissolution of the Ego = psychotic, lol! :laugh:

)

prudence said:
I am still plodding along at beginner level in my astro studies though...it is so complex and layered and....deep. But I almost always read the threads in here, well, at least the ones I can semi-understand. Good luck in your learning.

Yes, it has definitely many many layers. It's really an art, like Minderwiz and Dave said, and like any art a part is learnt from books and classes, but another big part comes from the artist, so to speak. Meanwhile, I am trudging through the mud puddles of Basic Level wondering how come my skull is still in one piece. But LOVING it. I love the mental challenge Astrology represents!

dadsnook2000

12th house not so bad in most cases

Some of the most engaging, vibrant, outgoing and all-around great individuals I've know have had 12th house Suns. While most were in the helping professions, really, they had no obvious hang-ups, health problems or major difficulties in life.

Just think of what a 12th house Sun is! The Sun has just risen, light has come, the promise of a new day is starting to emerge, life is preparing to grab it's get-up-and-go and get going. Dave

Minderwiz

Oh dear, I find myself agreeing with Dave again

The twelfth House may not be the best place in a chart (any chart) but then we've all got one in our chart and many of us have planets in our twelfth (in my case Mars, Saturn and even worse for Pluto addicts, I've got Pluto there too, which for some Astrologers is justification enough for me resorting to suicide at an early age, rather than facing the horror of life to come (as they see it).

In the real world, having a planet or planets in your twelfth is not the end of life and as Dave points out, people with the Sun (or any other planet) in the twelfth can lead perfectly rewarding and enjoyable lives, All houses cover a range of possible experiences. For example hospitals (and associated institutions such as care homes) are twelfth house places, and we could experience those either as a resident or work in them in one of the caring professions. Larger animals such as cattle and horses are twelfth House, we could lead lives which have a high involvement with those animals. The twelfth includes the secret or hidden, but that can simply mean working in the background or even being the main support to a relative who is in the public gaze. A bias to the twelfth (and I stress bias rather than simply having a planet or even two, there) does not have to mean that we have mental breakdowns, or become drug addicts (psychological approach) or end up in prison (traditionally a twelfth house place). Even if we do have a significant bias to the twelfth this might simply mean that we want to keep our lives very private, or devote our lives to caring for those in institutions or a similar twelfth house activity, Some members here might well actually be very pleased that witchcraft is a twelfth house practice, even though traditionally witches were seen as suspect.

We all have twelfth Houses, we all have planets that rule the twelfth, even if we don't have planets in the twelfth, and for all of us twelfth House functions are part of our lives, for some more than others, but very, very few of us have lives that are a disaster

Dadsnook2000 said:
Just think of what a 12th house Sun is! The Sun has just risen, light has come, the promise of a new day is starting to emerge, life is preparing to grab it's get-up-and-go and get going.

This observation seems to jar with the twelfth as a hidden or secret place - it's there in the full glare of the day. What we do need to remember is that the houses rotate clockwise and the start point is the moment of birth. Each of the twelfth houses (or rather the portion of the zodiac that they fall in) will rise across the Ascendant in the 24 hours following birth. The twelfth is the last place that will 'rise' in those 24 hours, rather than the first - it's the last place to come to the light after the birth.

However the important thing, is that the twelfth House Sun, indicates that it's a day birth. and the Sun is the most diurnal planet. If the Sun is in a diurnal sign (Fire or Air) then the Sun is in Hayz, the best possible condition for the Sun in any chart. it might not be quite as strong in the eighth or twelfth (other things being equal) as it is in the 11th, 10th, 9th and 7th but it is in it's 'element'. But is what is good for the Sun, good for the native...?

MareSaturni

dadsnook2000 said:
Some of the most engaging, vibrant, outgoing and all-around great individuals I've know have had 12th house Suns. While most were in the helping professions, really, they had no obvious hang-ups, health problems or major difficulties in life.

Oh, I was absolutely joking when I said we should be schizophrenics! I mean, I think I am still within the average age for the first schizophrenic episode, but so far nothing. :laugh:

Although I certainly am, according to Gary Posner who said the "believers [in astrology] may have a pathological medical condition...maybe compatible with a diagnosis of schizophrenia.".

It's like you said - potential is something, but it's experience that helps to shape these latent energies within us. Besides, the chart is a fairly complex 'map'... the Sun in the 12th House is influenced by many other factors.

Minderwiz said:
The twelfth House may not be the best place in a chart (any chart) but then we've all got one in our chart and many of us have planets in our twelfth (in my case Mars, Saturn and even worse for Pluto addicts, I've got Pluto there too, which for some Astrologers is justification enough for me resorting to suicide at an early age, rather than facing the horror of life to come (as they see it).

Poor Minderwiz!

You are not alone in this!

The Sun in the 12th House does not bother me, although it gets some scary descriptions in the books. I once had a friend who was an 'astrology student' who told me to be careful about my "Gangster potential" - I have Mars and Pluto in the 11th House, I have chances of inspiring riots or getting involved with criminal groups. :bugeyed:

Wow. Well, that's predictable, I must be looking for my future husband among the Rich criminals, because of the Venus in Capricorn in the 1st House. That's how I'll end in prison (Sun 12th House).

You see, all makes perfect sense! :laugh:

Joking aside, it's complicated when you limit the planets to ONE TRUE kind of influence - and also when you isolate it from other influences. It makes people seem like human-shaped cardboard cutouts! Many of the descriptions of aspects in older book are rather scary, and make you feel as if you were born rotten somehow.

I think that if you assimilate the 'universe' of potentials that exists in each planet, instead of memorizing characteristics, it becomes easier not only to understand the interplay between the planets, but to see them within the context of the whole chart. Not focus on ONE house. Is the idea of suicide/social climber/frenzied crusader/gangster/mentally disordered reinforced anywhere else? How does it go with the rest of the chart? How does it go with the current reality of the person?

Minderwiz said:
The twelfth includes the secret or hidden, but that can simply mean working in the background or even being the main support to a relative who is in the public gaze. [...] Even if we do have a significant bias to the twelfth this might simply mean that we want to keep our lives very private, or devote our lives to caring for those in institutions or a similar twelfth house activity, Some members here might well actually be very pleased that witchcraft is a twelfth house practice, even though traditionally witches were seen as suspect.

Hey, have you been reading my journal???

Minderwiz

Marina said:
Poor Minderwiz!
You are not alone in this!

The Sun in the 12th House does not bother me, although it gets some scary descriptions in the books. I once had a friend who was an 'astrology student' who told me to be careful about my "Gangster potential" - I have Mars and Pluto in the 11th House, I have chances of inspiring riots or getting involved with criminal groups.

Well in my case I got round it by totally ignoring Pluto, Dave would say of course that ignoring it doesn't make it go away

I once read an Astrologer (I think it was Stephen Arroyo) saying that at a conference he'd been at he came across several colleagues worrying and fretting about their Pluto transits, and these were people who are supposedly counselling clients to be positive. Ignoring it might not make it go away but it does make life much more fun

Marina) Joking aside said:
Astrologers both ancient and modern are guilty of using language that we find scary from a twenty first century context. One of the scariest I've read is Alan Leo writing at the turn of the twentieth century but I can point to the odd thing in Lilly that is not PC At least we can make some allowances for culture differences between now and 100 years ago or more, it's when you read a current Astrologer treating some configurations as generic signs of mental illness or extreme behaviour based on working with people who are mentally ill or highly disturbed or unbalanced and then projecting it on to the population as a whole. It's also worth bearing in mind that people who consult Astrologers do so because they usually want help with a problem - they are in an atypical situation for them. So we should be careful about widely attributing characteristics to people based on encountering those characteristics in people in atypical situations for them. y

Marina said:

I think that if you assimilate the 'universe' of potentials that exists in each planet, instead of memorizing characteristics, it becomes easier not only to understand the interplay between the planets, but to see them within the context of the whole chart. Not focus on ONE house. Is the idea of suicide/social climber/frenzied crusader/gangster/mentally disordered reinforced anywhere else? How does it go with the rest of the chart? How does it go with the current reality of the person?

Click to expand...

Yes that's true. Astrologers need to consider the 'default' for a person - that is their basic character. People who are naturally melancholic don't engage in hyperactive rounds of rash intense behaviour, whatever the current transit or progression or solar return. They may however be a little more dynamic or optimistic than normal for them. On the other hand extreme melancholics with little counterbalancing humours are likely to be prone to depression and even small disturbances to routine might tip them over the edge. Extreme melancholics are of course just that - extremes and not normal people.

It's quite possible to read on a house by house basis once the basic temperament and behavioural tendencies have been identified. That temperament and behaviour will inform the way that the houses are read - that is we would bear their temperament in mind if they asked about what sort of employment would suit them, rather than simply going from the tenth house on its own.

Marina said:

Hey, have you been reading my journal???

Click to expand...

How did you know....witchcraft???

Strongly aspected? Afflicted?

MareSaturni

dadsnook2000

Minderwiz

MareSaturni

prudence

MareSaturni

dadsnook2000

Minderwiz

MareSaturni

Minderwiz