Just Curious...

prudence

LRichard,

I did not actually say anyone needs to always include a disclaimer. This is indeed the RWS forum, and such as it is, no one should be led purposefully or accidentally into thinking the RWS deck has certain attributions that are or were a part of the historical decks. Let's try to be clear when we are talking about this aspect of all of these decks. In this section of the forum or any other.
 

Richard

LRichard,

I did not actually say anyone needs to always include a disclaimer. This is indeed the RWS forum, and such as it is, no one should be led purposefully or accidentally into thinking the RWS deck has certain attributions that are or were a part of the historical decks. Let's try to be clear when we are talking about this aspect of all of these decks. In this section of the forum or any other.

So far in this thread, I don't see any posts which imply that the esoteric "overlays" of the RWS are derived from the historical decks. The RWS was obviously derived from the historical decks, but not the other way around. I must be missing something.
 

Amanda

Wowee, I wasn't expecting all the commotion. :D Now I understand tb's initial comments a little better. :p

Okay -- so based on these:

Amanda,

I don't know if this will help, but the original decks that most tarot decks are based on had Justice at 8 and Strength at 11. Look at some TdM style decks or others that are older than Thoth/Waite's decks. I tend to feel that 8 as Justice/11 as Strength fits better. It feels right, as nebulous as that may seem.

In the Marseille, Strength is 11 and Justice is 8. In the Golden Dawn, Strength is 8 and Justice is 11. Waite used the Golden Dawn numbering. Crowley used the earlier Marseille numbering.

However, the numbering is a superficial difference and doesn't even begin tell the whole story. Crowley's apparent reversion to the Marseille numbering is not directly related to the cardinal number placement of the Strength and Justice cards. It has to do with the Hebrew letter correlations of the Emperor and Star cards (as well as the Strength and Justice cards) and their positions on the Hermetic Tree of Life. I could go into details, but it would take us far afield from your original post into the intricacies of the Sepher Yetzirah and Crowley's mathematical/astrological notion of the "double loop" connection between Justice-Strength and Emperor-Star.

...essentially, Crowley found a connection within Hebrew stuff that supported original TdM stuff that was around before the Golden Dawn, and for some reason the GD changed it in the middle there somewhere which had its effect on Waite and his deck.

Was/Is there correlation between Alpha and Omega for #11 Justice in the TdM, similar to Crowley's? Because LRichard has already shown me the Magician and Strength with their leminscate hats... which is similar to Waite's depiction of those cards.

I might have to get a TdM now... to go on a wild goose chase to find "...the thing that doesn't belong..." :joke:

But, I must say, Waite and the GD is looking awfully suspicious from this naïve point of view I currently have on the matter.
 

GlitterNova

Was/Is there correlation between Alpha and Omega for #11 Justice in the TdM, similar to Crowley's?
It's important to remember that, unlike the Thoth, the TdM was not originally made for fortune-telling or divination, but as a deck of playing cards. One can certainly find symbols in TdMs that aid with divination but one must be very skeptical about the supposed 'historic' significance of those symbols, especially since we can't go back and ask the artists what they intended those symbols to mean (or even if they intended them to be symbols at all). You can check out many different versions of the TdM Justice card on this page (start at the bottom, they're there). There aren't any overt 'Alpha and Omega' symbols on any of the versions that I can see.
 

Zephyros

...essentially, Crowley found a connection within Hebrew stuff that supported original TdM stuff that was around before the Golden Dawn, and for some reason the GD changed it in the middle there somewhere which had its effect on Waite and his deck.

Not exactly. The Golden Dawn changed the ordering to better reflect the order of the zodiac so that you would have first the planets based on their speed of movement and distance from the sun:

Fool: Air
Magician: Mercury (closest planet to the Sun)
Priestess: Moon (next "planet" as far as the classical astrologers were concerned)
Empress: Venus (next planet out)

Now begin the zodaical Trumps beginning with:

Emperor:Aries
Hierophant:Taurus
Lovers: Gemini
Chariot: Cancer
Strength: Leo
Hermit: Virgo
Justice: Libra

etc.

These attributions make sense, since they follow natural progression. What Crowley did may seem, on the surface, as going back to the original order but what he did was so drastic and "out there" it can't be considered as such. Here, in order to understand that you really have to know your stuff, because it really is confusing. Here is a short, graphic explanation that serves mainly to demonstrate what niether I, nor you, will ever fully understand

http://www.cornelius93.com/EpistleonZodiacBelt.html

It has to do with the reception of the Book of Law and certain instructions contained therein. For the Thoth it works... after a fashion, although some would say it causes more problems than it solves.


Was/Is there correlation between Alpha and Omega for #11 Justice in the TdM, similar to Crowley's? Because LRichard has already shown me the Magician and Strength with their leminscate hats... which is similar to Waite's depiction of those cards.

I suppose esoteric significance can be found, but they aren't intrinsic. Many aspects of the TdM were discarded by both the GD and Crowley, and symbols were used differently. As for the TdM having no esoteric significance, that's simply not true. Even if we disregard everything else, the Trumps clearly show some kind of at least astrological ordering that was put in place originally, even if the deck was not finalized until long after its origins. Cards like Justice with its scales or Strength with its lion or the Empress with its Venusian figure all point to some astrological connection. But it would have been natural for the creators of the deck to include these figures at the time.
 

GlitterNova

As for the TdM having no esoteric significance, that's simply not true. Even if we disregard everything else, the Trumps clearly show some kind of at least astrological ordering that was put in place originally, even if the deck was not finalized until long after its origins. Cards like Justice with its scales or Strength with its lion or the Empress with its Venusian figure all point to some astrological connection. But it would have been natural for the creators of the deck to include these figures at the time.

I agree, certainly, although I'm not completely convinced that this would have actually been esoteric knowledge--I believe that the earliest decks like the Visconti were intended to be used by people in the upper class/nobility who already had a knowledge of astrology and would have been familiar with these symbols. The symbology I mean I'm 'skeptical' of in the previous post is referring more to what isn't obviously astrological or alchemical in nature--for example the lemniscate in the brims of the hats. The symbol of a sideways figure-eight didn't even obtain the meaning of 'infinity' until the mid 17th century, long after the TdM was created. I don't have any issue with someone retroactively identifying these types of symbols as long as there is the understanding that they may not actually be historic (but they can still useful to look for when using the decks as divinatory tools, don't get me wrong about that). I just don't want the OP to make the mistake of retroactively looking for symbols where they don't exist historically.

Here's my question, coming from someone with very little knowledge of astrology or the zodiac: did the order of the trumps in the TdM relate to the planetary/zodiac order as it was understood in the middle ages? I get the feeling that the OP's next question will be something along the lines of why the TdM has Strength at 11 and Justice at 8 in the first place, if it is different than the reason they are numbered that way in the Thoth. I'm curious about that as well.
 

Zephyros

Here's my question, coming from someone with very little knowledge of astrology or the zodiac: did the order of the trumps in the TdM relate to the planetary/zodiac order as it was understood in the middle ages? I get the feeling that the OP's next question will be something along the lines of why the TdM has Strength at 11 and Justice at 8 in the first place, if it is different than the reason they are numbered that way in the Thoth. I'm curious about that as well.

I think this thread should be moved to the Historical forum, since it may be evolving out of RWS.

In any case, it is difficult to tell, since the earliest Trumps had no numbers, and the ordering may have evolved in a spontaneous fashion. Correlations can certainly be found, but I'm not aware of anything definite. I have no idea where the "flaw," if it is one, that the GD sought to correct originated.
 

Michael Sternbach

Hi Amanda,

Here is another interesting approach to your topic.

Arrange the 21 numbered RWS Trumps in numerical order in three horizontal rows of seven each. (This is based on a suggestion by Papus.) Now, you will have Justice at the beginning of the middle series right under the Magician. But actually, all three cards in the first vertical row (as well as in other vertical rows) will have some remarkable similarities.
 

Amanda

Not exactly. The Golden Dawn changed the ordering to better reflect the order of the zodiac so that you would have first the planets based on their speed of movement and distance from the sun:

Fool: Air
Magician: Mercury (closest planet to the Sun)
Priestess: Moon (next "planet" as far as the classical astrologers were concerned)
Empress: Venus (next planet out)

Now begin the zodaical Trumps beginning with:

Emperor:Aries
Hierophant:Taurus
Lovers: Gemini
Chariot: Cancer
Strength: Leo
Hermit: Virgo
Justice: Libra

etc.

These attributions make sense, since they follow natural progression.

They follow natural progression, but why the planets first? I mean, there are several times I have thought the Magician could be Aries (with none of the knowledge to back anything up mind you, just my feelings on the card).

What Crowley did may seem, on the surface, as going back to the original order but what he did was so drastic and "out there" it can't be considered as such. Here, in order to understand that you really have to know your stuff, because it really is confusing. Here is a short, graphic explanation that serves mainly to demonstrate what niether I, nor you, will ever fully understand

http://www.cornelius93.com/EpistleonZodiacBelt.html

It has to do with the reception of the Book of Law and certain instructions contained therein. For the Thoth it works... after a fashion, although some would say it causes more problems than it solves.

It seems like he's making reference to the Lovers and the Tower, and then says something about his prophet revealing the secret to the wise. What do you think that means?

I've seen this kind of thing before; someone showed me something they were trying to work out with the ordering of the cards. It just wasn't quite like this with the double loop, but they were trying to figure out a pattern to reorder the cards in a circle. I can see why this is called a double loop, but is there any significance to the trinity of circles the double loop creates?

I suppose esoteric significance can be found, but they aren't intrinsic. Many aspects of the TdM were discarded by both the GD and Crowley, and symbols were used differently. As for the TdM having no esoteric significance, that's simply not true. Even if we disregard everything else, the Trumps clearly show some kind of at least astrological ordering that was put in place originally, even if the deck was not finalized until long after its origins. Cards like Justice with its scales or Strength with its lion or the Empress with its Venusian figure all point to some astrological connection. But it would have been natural for the creators of the deck to include these figures at the time.

So, can I ask you something? Are you as familiar with TdM and Waite as you are the Thoth? What draws you strongly to the Thoth over the others? And how do you personally feel about the placement of Strength/Justice?
 

Amanda

Hi Amanda,

Here is another interesting approach to your topic.

Arrange the 21 numbered RWS Trumps in numerical order in three horizontal rows of seven each. (This is based on a suggestion by Papus.) Now, you will have Justice at the beginning of the middle series right under the Magician. But actually, all three cards in the first vertical row (as well as in other vertical rows) will have some remarkable similarities.

I will do that. I've already been writing out number patterns (and driving myself a little crazy with it). :D

I need to take a break away from this though for a moment, as I need to meet some deadlines with some schoolwork I need to do. I'll be back though! :)