Nemo Live On.

AmounrA

I would imagine we would all agree that Earth & its eco systems are at some risk at this time. A great many fellow animals are in real danger of only existing in zoo's. Many of the great trees are also felled with no thought. Glaciers all over the world are melting.

Most people on Earth live in poverty and slums. Most of the worlds leaders are unenlightened and corrupt.

I consider myself an animal, and as such believe other animals are spiritual too. Have an equal right to exist. The caballa to me is a living energy. Energy with limitless windows. I would expect that energy to have as much 'love' invested in the Siberian Tiger as in a Human, or in a tree that has lived for 2,000 years.

With this in mind, I wonder what the energy thinks of us? When I imagine the eye of magic, it seems to close and a silver tear falls from it. It seems sad.

When you lift your head up, this earth is seemingly beyond imediate hope. The times we are alive here in are truely extaordinary. In every direction. As I gaze from my window out into malkuth, I wonder .

I wonder will 'god' make a move soon? or is free will taking us blindly over a cliff.
I wonder what spirit/force watches over the Earth?
I wonder if it likes us?

What lurks in the abyss?

Is the darkest hour before dawn?
 

venicebard

AmounrA said:
I consider myself an animal, and as such believe other animals are spiritual too. Have an equal right to exist.
I would only call attention to the difference between a horizontal and a vertical orientation: only man has an upright spine. This, it would seem to me, must indicate some ontological difference, not to mention the cognitive one.

And as for 'right', I would put it differently (not to differ as much as to clarify). Animals have a purpose in existing just as much as do humans. But I would liken this to a house needing windows just as much as it needs a door.

As for the rest, the druid in me cries at every clear-cut hill one drives by in Washington state! but I know that it is inevitable that the flora and fauna of earth will represent the prevailing psychology of the age (since we are all connected deep within, which is cabala's main teaching I should think), and that the beauty of the Siberian tiger will not evolve into a more gentle beauty until the psychic impulse driving it becomes itself more gentle.
When you lift your head up, this earth is seemingly beyond imediate hope. The times we are alive here in are truely extaordinary. In every direction. As I gaze from my window out into malkuth, I wonder .
Extraordinary that you equate the 10th with the outer horizon, when even what survives of Kabbalah shows it can only mean the inner one -- just as the 10th sign capricorn is straight back from the 4th or cancer the breasts. The Tree is said to be God's individuation: it goes from ain, 'nothing' (meaning 1 itself, wherein nothing has yet distinguished itself from the One) to ani (by transposition of nun and yod), 'I' -- the inner horizon, the ten-fingered individual inhabitant of the Malkut of the 4th world (earth or day or equator) IN which is 'God's' (meaning the One's) Presence, the Shekhinah!

I am sure you are not alone in seeing Malkut as you do, but I hope you will at least consider what I have said (discussion of ain to ani can be found in Gershom Scholem's Kabbalah [I can get the page number if you need it]).
I wonder what spirit/force watches over the Earth?
The Earth Spirit (no, I am not being flippant).
I wonder if it likes us?
It is a spirit: it doesn't think. It is not that It does not like what we have become, it is that we in our present state do not harmonize with It. (Perhaps on this point that great Gnostic, Gautama, was a bit clearer.) But in answer to your next query . . .
What lurks in the abyss?
. . . the primordial Form or Idea that teleologically draws all to itself (thus permeating the abyss), sayeth Kabbalah, is Adam Qadmon -- Upright Sentience (which draws bears and chimps so strongly that they sometimes strut about on their hind legs in spite of not having the proper spine to do so comfortably). It is called the divine Form because as a 'template' It will never cease, has never not existed. Hence one presumes those 'bad copies' of it known as human beings would be around somewhere groping their way towards said archetype in any age or aeon: it is (surely) the Soul of the World (see Plato).
Is the darkest hour before dawn?
Certainly the coldest.
 

AmounrA

Thankyou for your thoughts.

I think the tree of life is a seed on which many fruits of interpritation have grown. Very interesting and strange fruits.

I am in many ways a picker, I pick the bits that ring true to me from all sorts of places, but would not consider myself from those places, or representing one over another. To be honest I would rather spend an evening talking to a botanist than caballist.( in the nicest way). The reason being that the caballa to me is a tool which can be learnt in one evening. (unless of course its the history of the tool which facinates)

10. malkuth, Earth. The physical world of solid manifestation.The world where clint eastwood is.
9. Yesod. The internal world, the world where clint eastwood can be visulised.
8.Netzach, The emotional mind. There for interaction with malkuth.
7.Hod. The thinking mind. There for interaction with malkuth.
if 8-7 are in equillibrium, the the mind can flow into --
6. Tipareth, The self. The wonder at the world that a child feels.Or of course a cold hard stone. The self that sits between malkuth and kether.
5.Geburah. Will. The internal spark of motivation.
4.Chessed. The internal spark of compassion.
If 5-4 are in equillibrium, The mind can wonder though-
Abyss. And having felt the pulse that runs through everything--
3.Binah. 2.hockmah 1. Kether. The triad that forms ,god. The babe in the abyss.


On this we have cabballa linking to contact from within. Connected as all energy is one.

Yes humans have an upright spine, but so did neaderthals. (who we killed). The human species is like the shark. different types (white ,asian, black..all have different features and strengths). But all sharks have five gills. Birds have feathers.. We are all one big family. Humans are (in my eyes) very much part of the earth life family. It is our view that we are somehow superiour that has lead to our alienation as societies from the simple truth. Earth is paradise, we just make it hard on ourselves. but then as terratorial social primates, who have developed such powerful tools, it is perhaps that we are doing very well on the whole.
 

venicebard

AmounrA said:
Thankyou for your thoughts.
You're welcome.
10. malkuth, Earth. The physical world of solid manifestation . . .
. . . of what can be grasped in the 10 fingers . . .
9. Yesod. The internal world, . . .
. . . in which we spend 9 months each time round, 10 and 9 being the offspring of:
8.Netzach, The emotional mind. There for interaction with malkuth.
. . . the lustful female aspect of the psyche, and . . .
7.Hod. The thinking mind. There for interaction with malkuth.
. . . the lustful male aspect of psyche.
If 8-7 are in equillibrium, the the mind can flow into --
6. Tipareth, The self. The wonder at the world that a child feels.
Yes! the 6 directions of space, offspring of:
5.Geburah. Will. The internal spark of motivation.
. . . which originates in the maternal impulse, that which guards and constricts (mother-defending-her-young being the prototype of the martial spirit), and . . .
4.Chessed. The internal spark of compassion.
. . . which originates in the paternal impulse, that which reaches out to other (the 4th sign being straight ahead, cancer the breasts or sternum). These are, again, the maternal and paternal impulses of one psyche.
If 5-4 are in equillibrium, The mind can wonder though-
Abyss.
. . . separating chaste from unchaste . . .
And having felt the pulse that runs through everything--
3.Binah. 2.hockmah 1. Kether.
. . . which are, respectively, the chaste female, chaste male, and chaste sexless aspects of psyche, this last a mere seed in humans but fully developed in (sexless) Adam Qadmon.
The triad that forms ,god.
I take God in the kabbalistic sense to be that which expresses itself through the divine Form of Adam Qadmon -- Upright Sentience drawing all to itself, thereby acting (without itself moving or changing) as both Creator and Ruler of Everything-there-is.
On this we have cabballa linking to contact from within. Connected as all energy is one.
The oneness of the individual and the whole, which is not to deny the individual but to see it as one with the whole in the same way that the energy (fiery stuff of which airy, fluid, and solid matter are made) present at a particular location can only be fully defined in terms of the entire system of the cosmos in which it takes its being. All the above is IMHO, so to speak (though I see IMO/IMHO as attempts to avoid responsibility for one's ideas more than anything else).
It is our view that we are somehow superiour that has lead to our alienation as societies from the simple truth.
It is not a matter of being superior so much as being distinct as to type: you are right in the sense that the distinction of being upright and thus having a soul (soul, as opposed to self, being simply the upright form of an individual) does not mean that which lacks a soul is worthy to be discarded. The shaman is quite right in postulating that animal species have each an individual spirit from which man can learn, and dwelling in which the pieces of psyche trapped there (so attached to solid matter that it was left behind when the rest of the psyche went on to its after-death states) can learn, gaining experience while distilled out from the remainder of the psyche.
Earth is paradise, we just make it hard on ourselves . . .
Yeah, by turning our part of it into what the dualists called hell.
 

AmounrA

Thaks again for your thoughts.

I do not think that our fellow creatures lack a 'soul'. It is true that we on the surface appear more sophisticated than our fellow creatures, but I feel that this is dellusion. For all our tools we have nothing which leads me to believe we are more special in 'soul' than a Bonobo .
( http://www.bonobo.org/whatisabonobo.html ). We are in many ways as predictable as every other creature in our behaviors.

It is my belief that homo primates, lived by the sea, and this has led to our differences from other primates. I think it dellusional to think that the homo primate (us) have a soul and all the others do not. There can be no doubt that we are primates. It is to be something to celebrate rather than deny. I can not think of any model were by 'god' considers us special compared to the others. The Bonobo , which I give a link for above, is a wonderful fellow ape. If ever you meet one I think you would find it impossible to deny it has 'soul'.

As for God, I see no evidence that 'it' has taken any special notice of us. The bible is obviously a man written book. And if it does (shock horror) turn out to be truth, I would suspect that the gods metioned in it were more advanced species from the void. Mistaken for gods. Universe is very old, and it would make sense that species are out there which are billions of years ahead of us ( perhaps they would believe we lacked souls). I would hope they have evolved far enough to give us a break, for we really are not that far along the road of universal being to turn round and chuck stones at the other animals.

My personnal view is that the energy released in the big bang(or whatever started it) is 'god'. It was released blind and has grown with time. The babe in the abyss. It is this which means 'god' is in everything. But god not in the sense of a jehovah or a quetzelcoatal, which I consider to be man created ideas or at a reality stretch aliens.
 

venicebard

AmounrA said:
I do not think that our fellow creatures lack a 'soul'. It is true that we on the surface appear more sophisticated than our fellow creatures, but I feel that this is dellusion. For all our tools we have nothing which leads me to believe we are more special in 'soul' than a Bonobo .
( http://www.bonobo.org/whatisabonobo.html ). We are in many ways as predictable as every other creature in our behaviors.
Perhaps it was misleading of me to say animals lack a soul, in that of course it must be by the agency of a soul that it has senses and a great many other things in common with man. But no animal has an indwelling soul in the sense of upright stature, this based not on modern nebulous 'definitions' of soul but on Thomas Aquinas's definition of it as man's 'substantial form' (I believe is the proper term). What I am trying to get at is that the psyches of man and beast are a single stew, not separate little pods (species), in that in man the complexes are gathered into one being whereas in animals they are separated or distilled out for individual 'treatment' (by what I once in a song called 'Concentration Camp Earth') through experience in a body designed especially for (actually by) one particular complex. That animal types exist in human thinking is what enables the shaman to draw power and knowledge (or at least understanding) from their spirits.
It is my belief that homo primates, lived by the sea, and this has led to our differences from other primates. I think it dellusional to think that the homo primate (us) have a soul and all the others do not.
Come now, do you not think it might have just a little bit to do with the definition of soul one brings to the table?
There can be no doubt that we are primates.
This unfortunately merely states a truism, as in academic circles man is defined as such.
I can not think of any model were by 'god' considers us special compared to the others.
I will give you one: the Kabbalistic model, in which Adam Qadmon represents the divine Form -- the One Form, source of the Sefirot themselves -- because it is in seeking the One Form, which is (according to this model) Upright Sentience, that all forms come into existence. As teleological cause of all change and progression, it creates and rules all that is, without Itself changing in any way, and it is omniscient as well in the sense of being knowledge's Form (in the Platonic sense). The active, dynamic hand of God would of course be those forms that have achieved oneness, or at least virtual unison, with the One Form: such beings would by definition transcend sex and all other limitations separating us from It. And the logical likelihood of their existence would preclude the whole neo-Darwinian model, which beyond the predictable scarcity of more advanced (hence less numerous) forms farther back in time has virtually no evidence to support it: it is based solely on similarity of form (physical, though no animal has an upright spine, and behavioral) between man and the animals, which as you can see from the Kabbalistic model is capable of having a very different cause than simply our having evolved from them.
The Bonobo , which I give a link for above, is a wonderful fellow ape. If ever you meet one I think you would find it impossible to deny it has 'soul'.
Of course. I simply would hesitate to put an a in front of it.
As for God, I see no evidence that 'it' has taken any special notice of us.
Interesting you should say this. Having just read my first Vonnegut (sp?) in a long time, The Sirens of Titan, and encountered in it the idea of an absolutely indifferent God, I suddenly realized the full implications of the Adam Qadmon model outlined above, that is, that God -- whose form is the One Form, Upright Sentience, that which all seek but no-one we know has achieved -- is quite indifferent, in the sense that it is our inability to be indifferent towards the One Form (being universally drawn by or to it), not Its inability to be indifferent towards us, that determines what is. I hope this concept helps clarify the Kabbalistic counterargument to modern nihilism and materialism.
The bible is obviously a man written book. And if it does (shock horror) turn out to be truth, I would suspect that the gods metioned in it were more advanced species from the void. Mistaken for gods. Universe is very old, . . .
Ageless, in fact, else all the conservation laws of physics are mere hot air. But I stopped you here only to point out that it has been shown that flying saucers are an emanation from quartz-bearing rock under seismic pressure, not vessels, and I would suggest that those more advanced species you and I agree must exist are probably even more advanced than is envisioned by UFO enthusiasts! and must include the most advanced of all, namely those who are actually of the Adam Qadmon type!
My personnal view is that the energy released in the big bang(or whatever started it) is 'god'. It was released blind and has grown with time.
The babe in the abyss. It is this which means 'god' is in everything. But god not in the sense of a jehovah or a quetzelcoatal, which I consider to be man created ideas or at a reality stretch aliens.
Quite so: these are masks we give 'It' (though yod-heh-vav-heh relates to the very first mask given it, so to speak, and thus has special power as a name). I should point out, though, that a Gnostic view (based on gnosis, meaning grasp of the changeless) separates the demiurge-creator (which is really just a scapegoat-image for man himself) from the ultimate 'Deity', which would be the changeless divine Form: the One Form, sought by all. But really, if the Creator in the sense of the creating-and-ruling potency of the One Form is eternal, how can the field of that creative power, the universe, not be?
 

venicebard

venicebard said:
Perhaps it was misleading of me to say animals lack a soul, in that of course it must be by the agency of a soul that it has senses and a great many other things in common with man.
I should explain this a bit further (without waxing long-winded). I see the psychic presence in any higher animal (excluding insects, for example) as being that bit of an individual doer that cannot let go of the physical when the doer goes on to its after-death states, hence it goes into and animates one member of the young of its type (species), with the help of the soul no longer being used by the now unembodied doer. The soul presumably prompts the conception of that animal and shapes its form and the course of its life, to give said stubborn bit of psyche the experience it needs to 'loosen up'.

In an animal associated with the Adam Qadmon type, however, the inhabiting spirit would more likely be an elemental spirit, a nature spirit formed for the purpose of progress amongst nature units, the units that constitute what extends from the body's axis to the outer horizon, the doer being part of self, of what extends from there to the inner one, which does not exist in space but in mind, a different mode of existence but existence nonetheless. (It amuses me that the materialist, such as my father, believes a chair more real than the idea that made it!)
 

AmounrA

I am sad to say that the enthusiasm I had for the Cabballa in my youth has now all but gone. The tree of life I still use, but only as a tool. All the rest of it I now consider tail chasing. Meaningless and useless.

I look out at the world and don't see how religion is a help. The cabballa has had a long time to prove itself, but has not. I would class, Christianity, Islam and Judism and the top 3 relgions the world would be better off without. Each of these three are male dominated nasty non-sense.

I really believe cabballa was ahead of the game until the end of the nineteeth century, but since then is no longer relevant. I really believe that this new aeon is the hidden gods time. A god hidden and only discoverable through an individuals personal journey. A multi media journey. literally. The universe meets us all half way, synchronicity its teaching tool.

The adam kadmon model is just so old and lacks the language of the current world. It is now a folly on the landscape of an ever more complex model. The occult sciences became the sciences. biology,chemistry,physics and pyschology are now at incredible levels of knowledge,understanding & wisdom. The hidden god runs through it all.

You don't need religon or cults to teach you to be a good person and to wonder at nature. In fact the religons are all encouraged by there creators..i.e the worlds leaders. I have had enough of the silly game, so has the planet.
 

venicebard

AmounrA said:
I am sad to say that the enthusiasm I had for the Cabballa in my youth has now all but gone. The tree of life I still use, but only as a tool. All the rest of it I now consider tail chasing. Meaningless and useless.

. . . The cabballa has had a long time to prove itself, but has not.
Much of what passes for Kabbalah is 'meaningless and useless'. But I am sorry to hear that you have given up on it: you didn't wait quite long enough, as I have now 'decoded' it to find the hidden treasure inside (based on a previous understanding that appears to dwarf that of the modern university, in that it unifies the sciences and arts into a single, consistent model).
I really believe cabballa was ahead of the game until the end of the nineteeth century, but since then is no longer relevant. . . .

The adam kadmon model is just so old and lacks the language of the current world. It is now a folly on the landscape of an ever more complex model.
There's your key right there: modern academia is going the exact opposite direction to that suggested by Occam's (sp?) razor, to more and more complex models-of-understanding. And it is doing so precisely because it is making the same mistake you are making in condemning an idea because of its longevity of all things!
The occult sciences became the sciences. biology,chemistry,physics and pyschology are now at incredible levels of knowledge,understanding & wisdom.
I personally have seen nothing in modern science to rival the proto-Hermetic Qabbalistic model as I understand it (and I have gone deeper than most), although two great discoveries stand out from all the cul-de-sacs in confirming it: the periodic table, and the four particle types (photon-lepton-meson-baryon, based on pi-mesons being the quanta of the strong nuclear force, not quarks), and even this last they are trying to undo (with quark theory). The rest of theoretical physics has taken a severely wrong turn, as has biology (in terms of its understanding, though its physical methods are quite sophisticated, no argument there), by trying to understand form's cohesion as the action of myriads of individual particles with no direction from above, meaning 'above' in nature's hierarchy, not 'above' in the sense of God, though the two may be related to a monotheist, which I am not: I acknowledge gods, plural, and the fundamental Unity, but I do not confuse the two (as monotheistic religions tend to). The problem of form in biological development and elsewhere is discussed at length in two books by Rupert Sheldrake, a trained biologist and maverick theorist: Formative Causation, and The Presence of the Past.
You don't need religon or cults to teach you to be a good person and to wonder at nature.
I couldn't agree more. But people who refuse to listen directly to conscience may need religion as substitute, else they might acquit themselves with even less restraint. I am simply pointing out that as distasteful as you and I find religion, I personally cannot rule out its being necessary to avert an even worse world, especially when I see, just as one example, the amount of charity evangelistic Christianity (whose theology I, being Gnostic, find utterly distastefull, mere 'worship of a Scapegoat') seems to give rise to.

But yes, the world is very disillusioning, I'll grant you that.
The universe meets us all half way, synchronicity its teaching tool.
Hold on to this, as it is ultimately the antidote to disillusionment.
 

AmounrA

reflections of one

Thanks for reply again.

Heres a challange, can you explain the adam kadmon model or the cabbalistic model of 'how we got here?' in scientific language?

"Much of what passes for Kabbalah is 'meaningless and useless'. But I am sorry to hear that you have given up on it: you didn't wait quite long enough, as I have now 'decoded' it to find the hidden treasure inside (based on a previous understanding that appears to dwarf that of the modern university, in that it unifies the sciences and arts into a single, consistent model)."

I have not quite given up, just worn out by a lot of the yargon, and the belief in many that the old cabbalists had is sussed, and there work is now stone. I mean who cares what tarot card should be on a certain path? (The only card i would not move is the highpriestess at tiparet to kether:) hidden treasure ? I would love to hear it, for me the cabballa needs to upgrade in my mind from a medievel way of passing on superstition and daydreams, clever though they are, tacked on to a much older, elegent, tree of life. I am not condeming it for being old, just for being out of date. Much like i would rather fly in a modern plane as oppossed to flying in the wright brothers plane. Sure both could fly, but the modern model has evolved a whole hell of a lot more. And of course, I am sure the planes in a further 100 years will be even better, real evolution of knowledge, understanding and wisdom though modern science.

I would say that in science, there is no openly acknowledged goddess. However, 'goddess' is there. universal mums tum. I have spoken to many scienists, and in the quantum field there are a lot of believers in 'something wonderful going on'. Einstein knew god did not play dice. I believe to be an advocate of 'science', does not mean you cant look at its spiritual level. science does not hold all the answers, it is a living evolving model. A douglas firr still in its infancy, growing fast but strong. The cabballa? a once mighty oak, now dying back in the forest of 'truth' ?