Any Kurt Cobain Fans here?

To do any Chart comparison you really need to look at the individual charts first - you can't really just leap to that stage.

I've made a couple of comparisons as I went, where things are relatively obvious as chart features but the next stage is to do an inter chart comparison to see if there is anything else that can be teased out.

Issues such as where Ascendants lie in each other's chart, positions of Sun, Moon and especially Venus and Mars in such a relationship chart.

At a more advanced level its possible to do a 'midpoints' chart or a derived Ascendant chart for them, the approach to the first is to use the midpoints of each pair of planets (e.g. his and her Sun) to create a new chart. The difference betweent the two approaches is that the first splits the zodiacal distance between the two Ascendants, the second calculates the midpoint in Earth space and then uses this for the 'birth place' of the relationship.

Of course as Ophiel recognises it's impossible for Astrology to indicate the clear answer to whether KC killed himself - though it is possible to look for potential suicide markers, either natally or by transit. I did a skim check on markers for major depression (a link to suicide) in his chart but I couldn't seen anything that leapt out at me. I don't know the date of the suicide offhand so its difficult to look at transits and progressions around that time - these might give some clues or indeed the absence of them might point against suicide.

proposed time of death

Minderwiz, you mean the date of the "alleged" suicide, right? LOL. I will gather some key dates, and in fact used to have such a list somewhere around here, like when they married, the date of his Rome 'accident,' an overdose on Courtney's perscription of Rohypynol, things like that. I'll track down dates.

However, those of us who suspect foul play believe that Kurt was probably dead (or very near death) by 7 AM on Monday 4 April 1994. That is the time that CL hired private detective Tom Grant to investigate some suspicious activities with Kurt's credit card purchases. She had him investigate some leads that Tom Grant found suspicious, based on what she said she had hired him to do. And of course all of this is merely speculation, but IF someone wanted to find a dead body, making sure the body was dead is a good point to keep in mind before hiring someone to look.

I am obviously not a keen astrologer as yourself, but would like to muck around a bit on my own and am curious if any of the chart comparison systems in my own Winstar Software would help...I have a basic composite chart based on midpoints between both charts, one with 'derived cusps, the Davison chart, a relationship chart based on trigonometry of great circles as the basis of calculating the geographical longitude and latitude, and a Coalesent chart based on the system of Lawrence Grinnell (Dhruva.)

Thanks Ophiel, and I did use 'suicide' carelessly though as I said before I don't really see any strong suicide indicators. The Sun/Mars link is exact but a trine. Such aspects may mean someone who is at war with themselves - and therefore ultimately may take their own life but I would really want to see a square or opposition here and other 'violent' or 'depressive' tendencies but there is no clear supporting evidence.

Looking at an interchart comparison four themes come out:

Firstly there are strong possibilities for a business related partnership, or one originally founded on business, These include her Sun/Moon conjunction in his tenth House, her Moon trine his Mercury, Her Venus in his tenth, her Mars conjunct his MC, her Saturn conjunct his Sun. Her Sun sextile he will stimulate her creative expression

Secondly there are clear possibilities for sexual attraction – Most notably her Moon trine his Venus. He Moon conjunct his Jupiter, which rules his seventh House of marriage, and which also raises the chances of harmony and understanding in a relationship, Her Sun sextile his Ascendant and Her Saturn in his Seventh which indicates that marriage is likely to be taken seriously and worked at. Her Sun is also trine his Neptune which might enhance romantic feelings but is not necessarily a sign of stability

Thirdly there are clear indications of mutual interest in the unusual, exotic, psychic or occult issues possibly that could be taken to extremes. Her Moon sextile his Uranus, trine his Neptune and sextile his Pluto all point in this direction. Her Jupiter in the ninth house trine his Pluto in the twelfth also seems to suggest a real interest in occult religions. Her Jupiter is also sextile his Uranus again pointing to mutual interest in humanitarian or unusual beliefs. The only downside to this is her Jupiter in opposition to his Neptune which may lead them to encourage each other in unrealistic fantasies, at the extreme she may come to believe his ideas are deluded and he may see her as overly orthodox.

Finally there are some negative indicators for the relationship. Her Mars is square his Mercury which could indicate heated arguments and disagreements. Her Mars is square his Pluto which can lead to intense difficulties, he might try to remodel her in a way she resents, they may goad each other into ill considered actions and at worst they could become enemies. Her Mars is also square his Ascendant which might well indicate difficulties in getting along, in business, or any other relationship, they may well annoy each other.

Now any relationship will have positive and negative indicators – often it is the challenges that lead a relationship to succeed and last. We need to consider how the two people described in previous posts are likely to behave with the above indicators for their relationships. Clearly the heavy Water, Earth bias indicates strong emotions and feeling for both. The positive relationship factors often involve Pluto and or her Moon, both are rulers in Water signs – strong emotions and feelings may make this relationship hold both for romantic and business reasons but they may also lead to it breaking. Mars is the traditional ruler of the Water sign Scorpio and the square between the two Scorpio planets Mars and Pluto may be the last straw eventually.

Both also have strong Neptune and Uranus influences, these may be very good from an artistic and innovative point of view but highly independent people often find it difficult to survive in relationships for a very long time, especially if it is to a similarly strongly independent person. Business and an interest in ‘New Age’ issues may have held them together, plus animal magnetism but eventually I think they would become bored with each other – more likely him first

Time of death

This is a little freaky. Using your time of 7 am and taking the place as Seattle, I cast a chart for the time and place and compared it to his natal chart.

The 'death' chart has Aries rising (rule by Mars). Cobain has Aries on the cusp of his eighth house which also rules death.

Now normally one thing that Astrologers don't try to deal with is the time and circumstances when someone will die - for obvious reasons (as all Tarot readers will know).

However as Kurt is already dead, I can make some comments. Mars rules his eighth and Mars is associated with violence - hence the violent death is inline with his natal chart. In his Natal Chart Mars was in Scorpio, in this sign Mars is a significator of the head (and indeed Aries the ruling sign of the eighth is the Sign that indicates the head). Thus the indicators point to death by a violent and piercing blow to the head (Scorpio rules piercings, incisions, surgery, violent invasion of the body).

The Ascendant of the 'death' Chart was also in the eight and as the Ascendant changes every two hours this is quite unusual. Indeed coming forward in time to just after 06:45 would put the Ascendant of the death chart exactly on his eighth house cusp. Also his Moon was squared by Mars at this time (a separating aspect of 21 minutes) and transiting Mars was in close opposition to Uranus, planet of sudden events. Transiting Mars was also applying to a conjunction with his Natal Saturn, though it was several days off being exact.
This may give a reasonable indicator of the time of his death.

THAT IS FREAKY

Some serious interconnections there. WOW.
Even though the planets and positions come full circle in our natals on occassion, the 'odds' of everything lining up as such is quite remarkable..

Thanks so much, Minderwiz. This all looks very interesting indeed. Of course, I'm only working with theories, though these are the same ones shared by people who have followed these events closely. Give me a little time to sift through my books to find dates, if you think that might help. Otherwise, tell me what else you need.

Some interesting asides about the weekend before Kurt died...He had been off to a rehab center called the Exodus, I believe. Contrary to some of the press coverage, Kurt did not escape. He simply walked out the front door. IT wasn't a facility like that. Some people are reported to have seen him that day and he appeared in very good spirits. He cheerfully signed a fan's autograph at the airport, I believe. He had a phone number in his pocket, a number for "Elizabeth," which I understand may be very significant. HE also did talk to his wife, if I recall. She was staying at a plush hotel in Beverly Hills. There was some talk that Kurt was breaking up the band, and if you read the main body of the suicide note with that in mind, it makes sense. If you try to read a suicide message from it, it just doesn't make sense. There is some writing that some experts feel was added to the top and bottom of the note by another person, that give the message a 'suicide' theme. It's pretty clear that Cobain didn't know what to make of his sudden fame and didn't handle his obligations very well. As I said in the first part of this message, as reported in the book "Who Killed Kurt Cobain" by Wallace/Halperin, his stomach ailment had been finally diagnosed properly and he was able to treat it with LEGAL medications. His friends said there was a noticeable difference in his demeanor after that time. He also had a plane ticket in his pocket to go visit and work with singer Michael Stipes of R.E.M. This has been verified by Stipes, before CL "befriended" him. She's really a very scary person. If you delve into her past beyond the superficial level, you will find a long history of violence. She spent a good part of her youth in various homes and was sometimes housed with the most dangerous kids, even the murderers. Quite a bit of that is documented in Rossi's biography, "Courtney Love: Queen of Noise."

I've been in touch with the private investigator, Tom Grant, and asked him for his birth information but he declined to share it.

Was it suicide?

It’s really impossible to come to any firm conclusions with the information so far – given Ophiel’s information that 7:00 a.m. corresponds to a real event in the events leading up to Kurt’s death, I have tried to read the Chart as an event chart.

The Ascendant is Aries, ruled by Mars, this could be taken as the primary significator of Kurt. The Eighth House of Death is also ruled by Mars (traditionally) and is in the twelfth House of the Event chart. This House traditionally rules self-undoing (Which could be suicide) and secret enemies (a possible hit man), Mars is also the ruler of his natal House of death. Mars could also be a Significator for Kurt as it rules the Aries Ascendant. However as I can’t use the same planet to signify two different things I will use the Sun, which has the greatest dignity on this Ascendant to signify Kurt. The Sun is also in the twelfth House in this Chart. The Sun is also conjunct the fixed star Alpharatz, which is associated with possible violent death and suicide. I could use Venus as a significator for Kurt as well because it is in the first House of the Event Chart. .

The Ascendant of the event chart falls in Kurt’s natal eighth House of death and the Sun (Kurt in the Event chart) has just begun a transit of his eighth House (49 minutes past the cusp). Venus in the first House of the Event Chart and also a significator of Kurt is also in his eighth House.

Mars is in mutual reception with Jupiter, which is retrograde and which is in opposition to the Ascendant and to the Sun. Jupiter is in the seventh House of his marriage partner (and rules his seventh House in his natal chart). Mars is also conjunct to Mercury (which is the ruler of his natal chart) and is also sextiled by Uranus (sudden events) and Neptune (drugs and fantasies).

The Ruler of his twelfth House is Saturn (traditionally a malefic planet in these circumstances) which is in an applying sextile from Venus one of his significators. Saturn is sextile the fixed star Hamal, which is linked to violence, cruelty, and head injuries as well as suffering in love.

Its possible to draw both conclusions from this chart. It could be Suicide – the house of self undoing, the link to drugs and sudden events, Venus is in the first house which is Kurt and is linked to head injuries (self inflicted being in the first) and Venus is also trine to the Arabian Part of Suicide. The Sun also is conjunct a fixed star associated with suicide.

The description of the situation fits well. However the twelfth is also the House of hidden enemies, so it could be someone he didn’t expect or believe was his enemy, who murdered him. Moreover, we do not know for certain that this is the time of death – it is one event in the overall story, though one which those who feel he was murdered take as being significant.

I don't know if there is any forensic evidence relating to the time of his death?

The police investigation was a botch job. They really didn't care about this one, as KC had been a thorn in their side for a long time, and were probably not that sorry to see him go. They labeled it a suicide at the scene (see the police report) and didn't even bother to check for prints (the ones that weren't there) until about 8 May, even though he died in early April. And they allowed CL to burn him up to ashes, even though the medical examiner (not trying to over do the conspiracy stuff, but he was acquainted with CL, a former music contact!) allowed the cremation, even though he did report a suspiciously high level of drugs found in Cobain's body. That was covered in the "Unsolved Mysteries" episode that appeared on television in Feb, 1997, me thinks.

Since you can't prove the cause of death, guess I'll have to go with my first game plan and force a confession out of CL herself!

Astrology won't give proof - the best is a balance of probablities. Sometimes these are very much in one direction, sometimes less so.

On the Event chart I'd say the balance was towards suicide or at least is consistent with suicide.

However the 'Event' that is timed is not by any means a sure time of death - as Ophiel said in an earlier post the murder theory is that he was dead or dying at this time (I would have said death was imminenent due to the Mars/Mercury applying conjunction) but he might have died several hours earlier or possibly a day later (or more). This makes it virtually impossible to cast an accurate Event of death chart.

Treating it as a direct horary question such as 'Did Courtney Love arrange the murder of her husband?' will not work as the answer is moot and is not a matter of vital interest to Ophiel or any of us. If the Police had asked at the time then maybe an answer would have come (but again on the balance of probabilities).

A bit of a pity because it's a really interesting issue and I had fun trying to apply astrology to the situation. I suppose we are left with the issue of whether Courtney Love was capable of the killing from her chart

That CL is a violent person is a matter of record.

I know there are more incidents than a few. Here is an article from E Online, about one attack against a photographer. Read on and you will find a few more incidents reported.

http://www.eonline.com/News/Court/9806.love.html

And get ready to roll your eyes...

She has a bad reputation for getting even with people.

There is a book called "Bongwater," by Michael Hornburg. The main character in the book, oddly enough named "Courtney," is based on, oddly enough, Courtney Love. There is an event in the book, where the main character actually burned down someone's house. And there might be some truth to this story, though it has never been substantiated...that she actually did burn down someone's house as an act of revenge.

Are you at all familiar with her early life? She spent a good deal of her time in and out of Juvenile Delinquent homes. That doesn't prove anything, I know, but I have read that she was considered dangerous at some point, and was kept with the very worst of the offenders, including teenager killers. I have spoken to her estranged father and he told me she used to sneak into her house and steal very expensive books he collected with her junkie friends to buy drugs.

I understand it is not a good idea to blow off Courtney Love. A short while after Kurt's death, the bass player in her band, Kristen Pfaff, decided to leave. She was set to go back home to Minnesota in mid June, 1994, just a few months after Kurt died. She was tired of the lifestyle, all the drugs, and had herself cleaned up. The night before she was to leave, with her car all packed and ready to go, she was visited by Erik Erlandson, guitarist for CL's band, Hole. (It has been reported by many sources that CL exerted a great deal of control over Erik, and he basically did whatever she demanded.) Erik was seen leaving her apartment at 8:30 that evening. Kristen was found dead in her bathroom the next day, overdosed on heroin. Don't forget, she had cleaned up and was going home the next morning.

Here is an interesting article from the World Net Daily website from a few years ago about CL's relationship with the Seattle Police...

http://w114.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17044