Greater Arcana Study Group—The Lovers

kwaw

Generally it may be said that Waite favoured replacing pagan references in GD material with Christian ones.
 

Yelell

I'm surprised by that answer. I had been under the impression that the inconsistencies were because he was didn't want to reveal too much. Not to be flip, but then how do you determine which things he may have done to conceal the secrets he was honor bound to protect and which he just changed on his own because he wanted to?
 

Richard

I'm surprised by that answer. I had been under the impression that the inconsistencies were because he was didn't want to reveal too much. Not to be flip, but then how do you determine which things he may have done to conceal the secrets he was honor bound to protect and which he just changed on his own because he wanted to?

The important thing is that the Waite deck is internally consistent. PKT can be somewhat misleading in places, but it does not exactly lie.

The pet leopard in the GD Queen of Wands is changed to a black cat, but I have come to think that this domesticated cat works just as well. While the Waite Majors do show a few significant changes from the GD Tarot (notably the Lovers and the Fool), the Minors do not seem to be to be inconsistent with the decan system used by the GD.

The notion of Waite using blinds to disguise GD symbols has become increasingly popular among cynics and Waite detractors. Since the Waite deck appeared after Crowley had blown the lid off the GD, it really didn't matter whether he used formerly secret GD material. He still chose not to for reasons of his own, and this makes the Waite deck distinctive, although it still loosely belongs in the GD tradition (as does the Thoth).
 

Richard

Generally it may be said that Waite favoured replacing pagan references in GD material with Christian ones.
And in so doing, he, in effect, reverted to some extent to the historical decks, as can be seen by comparing the Waite Trumps to those of the Golden Dawn and the Marseille. The B.O.T.A. Trumps, although mostly based on those of the Waite, show even more similarity to the Marseille.
 

Zephyros

The important thing is that the Waite deck is internally consistent. PKT can be somewhat misleading in places, but it does not exactly lie.

Of course Waite lies, most blatantly in the order of the Trumps. Things like the cat may be attributed to stretching the truth in order to conceal secrets but the ordering is the one thing that severely disrupts the internal consistency. Although he does not blab and give the kabbalistic attributions they are still inherent everywhere meaning that the roles each Court plays is wrong. This could lead to a chain reaction upending the whole book, but somehow he manages to keep most of the book and deck alright. Enough for me to give him a pass, this time. })

I'm surprised by that answer. I had been under the impression that the inconsistencies were because he was didn't want to reveal too much. Not to be flip, but then how do you determine which things he may have done to conceal the secrets he was honor bound to protect and which he just changed on his own because he wanted to?

Although Waite didn't leave many clues and the PKT deals mostly with his own, rather Messianic ramblings (personal opinion) the deck itself speaks volumes if you know what to look for. Golden Dawn influences are everywhere and in most cases it is possible to "reverse engineer" the cards once you know the keys. You can then see where he was coming from, in most cases. Sometimes he baffles, not much to do there, but in the deck it seems he felt honor-bound to present some semblance of the real system. Once you take apart a card to its astrological and Qabalistic attribution, whatever you're left with is pure Waite. We can't always tell what was in his head, but we do know what it was he was concealing.

Take away the Golden Dawn and you get Waite. In my opinion this also shows that his involvement in the pips was far greater than generally thought or that he let on.

So, although the deck is a mystery, it is completely possible to make educated guesses about it. When you start adding up coincidences, what you get is that they aren't coincidences but part of a cohesive system.
 

Yelell

And in so doing, he, in effect, reverted to some extent to the historical decks, as can be seen by comparing the Waite Trumps to those of the Golden Dawn and the Marseille. The B.O.T.A. Trumps, although mostly based on those of the Waite, show even more similarity to the Marseille.



One BOTA trump that isn't more similar to the TdM than Waite is the infamous Temperance -- she finally lost her pitcher juggling act })

As far as the lovers card, he didn't just revert to historical decks, he sharply regressed all the way to Adam and Eve. The Greek/Roman god even transformed into an angel.
 

Richard

Of course Waite lies, most blatantly in the order of the Trumps. Things like the cat may be attributed to stretching the truth in order to conceal secrets but the ordering is the one thing that severely disrupts the internal consistency. Although he does not blab and give the kabbalistic attributions they are still inherent everywhere meaning that the roles each Court plays is wrong. This could lead to a chain reaction upending the whole book, but somehow he manages to keep most of the book and deck alright. Enough for me to give him a pass, this time. })......

The ordering of the Trumps and Courts in PKT was the accepted pre-GD esoteric ordering (except for the nod to the GD in renumbering Strength and Justice). He says repeatedly that he thinks that this is the wrong ordering for the Trumps, but that it is good enough considering the introductory nature of the book. This, of course, is a strong hint that it is not the ultimate word on the matter. If the given order of the cards is considered lying, then he also includes an admission that he is lying. He probably thought that the average reader of PKT would not be looking for a consistent theory regarding the deck.

Historically the Fool is usually unnumbered. Since he numbered it zero and also considered it important to interchange the numbering of Justice and Strength, the numerical ordering of the cards was obviously important to Waite. It is therefore logical that the straightforward mathematical ordering of the Trumps is intended, so the Fool comes before the Magician (since zero is the integer preceding one), and the ordering continues according the numbers on the cards.
 

Richard

One BOTA trump that isn't more similar to the TdM than Waite is the infamous Temperance -- she finally lost her pitcher juggling act }).......
BOTA Temperance is almost overkill: dumping water on a big cat (lion, Leo, fire sign) and dripping fire on a raptor (eagle, Scorpio, water sign). It's a crazy card. Even the rainbow is reversed from how it occurs in nature. Normally the longest wavelength color, red, is that of the longest arc (the top one), and the colors have progressively shorter wavelengths until the shortest visible wavelength, violet, on the shortest (bottom) arc.
 

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Abrac

The more I reflect on Waite's commentary in The Pictorial Symbols of Alchemy, the more I'm starting to see its ideas reflected in The Lovers. In the PSA:

Old Man (Father) = Body
Young Man (Son) = Soul
Winged Figure = Spirit

In the Tarot:

Man = Body
Woman = Soul
Winged Figure = Spirit

The symbols are different but they symbolize the same things. As the son comes forth from the father, so also the woman, in the story of creation, comes forth from the man. The soul looks to the spirit for guidance up the mountain of initiation while the body looks to the soul for spiritual sustenance.

". . . only by her can he complete himself." :)
 

Richard

So what is the "body?" Is it a self-conscious entity? Is the conscious mind not a part of the scenario, or is mind simply a function of the physical brain?