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Has tarot been made to me more complex than it needs to be?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
If you dont insist my deck should be simpler , I wont insist that yours should be complex.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/73...50269037b7.jpg

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23...2b1737beab.jpg
lol!!! the simpler one is even more baffling oh the irony hahaha (if you want to debate about my use of irony.. well... let's not go down that rabbit hole)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geronimo View Post
I think it's a pretty plausible theory... afterall history is written by the victors.

Of course tarot doesn't need to be complex. I've considered cutting and pasting stuff on cards with ideas that speak to me more.. however.. the fun for me in tarot is the esoteric stuff, the forgotten symbols, the things we're collectively allowing to be reduced to nothing when it is just so so so rich and powerful. We live in a world where things are getting simpler and simpler and more specialized. I think it makes things like tarot even MORE important than it ever has been. Especially with us English speakers. Our language is just so dull and bland and deprived of rich meaning! So yeah... could you do readings with simpler images, hells yeah, you might even be better at it... but I think involving yourself in the complex has potential for you to grow and that for me is what makes tarot so fun. That's why Jung liked it.. tarot was/is such a lovely little mental tease.
yes!

Complexity and specialisation = evolution.
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Originally Posted by geronimo View Post
lol!!! the simpler one is even more baffling oh the irony hahaha (if you want to debate about my use of irony.. well... let's not go down that rabbit hole)
and what do you mean by rabbit hole?
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I started a 'complex' thread about tarot ... its covered in webs down in the GD forum (the one wth the creaky old oak doors) . Its about my astro-spread. The whole deck is laid out as a model of the cosmos.

IF the deck can be used as A map of the cosmos (and psyche ; as above so below) then , we can have a simple view or a complex one ... which is better? That depends ...

But I know the cosmos itself (inside and out) is a rather complex thing. It can be explained in simpler ways ... but it doesnt have to have a 'simple' view or understanding to explain it simpler , and sometimes an evolved understanding can make a simple explanation (or reading ? ) more ... hmmmm ...... succinct .
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Of course, it also depends on the question.


<looks at reading> "Hmmmm ... perhaps if you could get the essence of your path journey - at this moment - traversing from Netzach to your retrograde Venus in the Empress reversed and shift in the nutritional sector ... with an offering (just dream it in your subconscious) to the howling dogs in your reversed Moon over here... you may find a way to track down your lost new cat."

Querant; "Pardon?"

"Put out kitty's din-dins, he will get hungry and eventually come home."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
and what do you mean by rabbit hole?
hahahaha - almost took the bait, pesky little rabbit.

Which actually brings up a pretty interesting point. When I started getting into tarot, it definitely seemed like a rabbit hole. But that's because it's complexity was something I don't normally encounter. Go to work, small talk, sleep... our schools don't even offer this stuff! Everything is so black and white, and I blame it on the fact that English is our primary language. And here was a deck of cards filled to the brim of symbols that captured what we.. or I.. perceived as the grey area. And because I commit to understanding these (or try to at least), the grey becomes less grey. We can either go through life not knowing how to fully express ourselves and our experience OR we can understand that experience itself is pretty dang complex and understand how to express this ever elusive complexity.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
<looks at reading> "Hmmmm ... perhaps if you could get the essence of your path journey - at this moment - traversing from Netzach to your retrograde Venus in the Empress reversed and shift in the nutritional sector ... with an offering (just dream it in your subconscious) to the howling dogs in your reversed Moon over here... you may find a way to track down your lost new cat."

Querant; "Pardon?"

"Put out kitty's din-dins, he will get hungry and eventually come home."

hahaha I guess in SOME cases less is more. Try learning Mandarin Chinese? that's precisely what it's like. "Why can't they just say it like this?" "Because we don't. We like things to be complicated." But even then.... it is only the querant in this example who is makes it seem complicated. All of life is in the eye of the beholder.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
I started a 'complex' thread about tarot ... its covered in webs down in the GD forum (the one wth the creaky old oak doors) . Its about my astro-spread. The whole deck is laid out as a model of the cosmos.

IF the deck can be used as A map of the cosmos (and psyche ; as above so below) then , we can have a simple view or a complex one ... which is better? That depends ...

But I know the cosmos itself (inside and out) is a rather complex thing. It can be explained in simpler ways ... but it doesnt have to have a 'simple' view or understanding to explain it simpler , and sometimes an evolved understanding can make a simple explanation (or reading ? ) more ... hmmmm ...... succinct .
The answer is always simple, but first things need to be complex. So I personally don't find it a matter of, simple OR complex. Like Einstein and e=mc2. Like Nietzsche and "You need chaos in your soul to give birth to a dancing star." And the problem now is... people build simplicity atop of simplicity. Where is the transformation?! The evolution? Makes me think of people who get their news from headlines.. sure you might have an idea of what's going on in the world, but you can't say that you actually know. Then that just leads to being mislead and not knowing a GD thing!!
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Well I am a tad late to the conversation but it's most fascinating, and I agree with those who decree, "use the cards as you please." If we are to get more specific, then on all counts I agree with closrapexa. And I say what I am about to say with the disclaimer that I agree that intense study should be kept behind the scenes and out of the reading (when reading for others), unless the querent inquires so deeply as to desire/require it. A great depth of study is most useful as fodder for the reader; s/he should not ramble on and on about it during the actual reading, as it is confusing. Take time to consider it if needed, then speak only what is necessary.

I think it’s presumptuous to say that we’ve only recently begun “overcomplicating” things. Realistically, we only have a vague idea of tarot’s history, and there’s no real way of knowing all the myriad ways it may or may not have been used across various cultures throughout history (and, as was mentioned, behind closed doors); we only know what we know, and cannot disprove what we do not know. I think it’s more than likely that people have been “overcomplicating” tarot for centuries; our general understanding is that various forms of astrology and Kaballah and numerology and most other systems now being regularly cross-referenced with tarot (with the exception of the more recent addition of Jungian psychology and any other modern systems) predate tarot by very long stretches of time. To think that only in the past few decades have we begun to draw conclusions and cross-reference tarot with various metaphysical systems of understanding our universe would be naive; we’re merely the first ones to write about it to such a degree and with such fervor (at least with the in-your-face marketing of today’s tarot literature; I’m sure plenty of authors touched down on some of these things prior to whatever’s currently in print, and we just can’t find much of it easily anymore).

One could argue that it’s actually the other way around: that tarot itself, having come later than all these other systems, is itself a system of understanding the world that “overcomplicates” things. We already had all these other systems; why invent the tarot? Or rather, why use cards as something other than a game? Because someone noticed a pattern. Anything in life only has meaning because meaning was given to it. Meaning is merely a way of understanding life, the self, god, what have you. So we had all these other systems, and then someone noticed that there existed a new kind of pattern in the universe, and applied that meaning to these cards. They shared this discovery with others, and/or others picked up on the similarity themselves. Eventually, a whole new system, tarot, had been developed (whether or not it was first a game is beside the point; we're talking about how cards came to be "read," and that certainly happened, one way or another, because of these observations). Tarot itself is a result of overcomplication of meaning. Which is not a bad thing; it's just something that happens naturally the more people think and ideate. Despite it being a newer complication, tarot is fascinating and still a relevant representation of truth, just as these various other systems are all relevant representations of truth, in some way. We conceived of all these things, and so they have meaning, at least to some.

None of this cross-referencing is necessary to read tarot cards, of course. Tarot is like life (clearly), and like life, we can go as deep with it as we choose. Or not. It really depends on how we’re using the cards, and there’s really no right or wrong way to use them. Though, as was already stated, so-called ‘basic’ tarot meanings have a source, and that source ought to be questioned so that an individual can decide what this system really means to THEM. Which is why all this literature exists. And that is the question one must ask of oneself: what does tarot mean to YOU? And are you satisfied with someone else’s idea of what it means or how to read the cards? And how did you decide that one person’s idea (because those ‘basic’ meanings WERE someone’s idea, or a bunch of ideas mashed together over time for convenience) is more relevant than another person’s idea? And if the answer is, “well because that's the meaning that came first,” (was it?) or at least “it’s the first one I learned,” or “it’s the one I’ve heard the most,” then it’s worth examining why you would accept the first version of truth that you learned and reject any subsequent interpretations.

In short, we have not overcomplicated tarot. Tarot itself arose as a complication, a need to further explain the mysteries of life when there were already many other systems in place for this, and if anything, many have got it backwards: those "basic", or "classic" tarot meanings are, to one degree or another, an oversimplification of meanings that were assigned by many and passed down over a long period of time, and those simplified meanings were then repeated over and over in various books and reading circles. The fact that we are mixing other systems in so liberally is neither a new development nor a need for concern; it is the attempt of those who are still paying close attention to correct what may be deemed an oversimplification and say, no, in fact there IS more to tarot—or life—than that, if you choose to see the patterns.

If, however, you have looked around and become overwhelmed by what’s out there, or tried other methods, and found that a more simple method of reading is the one that works best for you, then by all means stick with it! Because of course, the most important thing while doing anything in life is to be true to oneself.
Top   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geronimo View Post
Of course tarot doesn't need to be complex. I've considered cutting and pasting stuff on cards with ideas that speak to me more.. however.. the fun for me in tarot is the esoteric stuff, the forgotten symbols, the things we're collectively allowing to be reduced to nothing when it is just so so so rich and powerful. We live in a world where things are getting simpler and simpler and more specialized. I think it makes things like tarot even MORE important than it ever has been. Especially with us English speakers. Our language is just so dull and bland and deprived of rich meaning! So yeah... could you do readings with simpler images, hells yeah, you might even be better at it... but I think involving yourself in the complex has potential for you to grow and that for me is what makes tarot so fun. That's why Jung liked it.. tarot was/is such a lovely little mental tease.
I agree completely, except for what you said about English. It is a rich, beautiful language, my favorite since first grade (I've always spoken three languages) and I actually speak it by choice. While texting and internet-speak are perhaps widespread, literature and the beauty of the English language still exist and rise to ever-increasing heights. The ease through which the basics of English can be learned is part of its beauty, like Tarot, but you ultimately have to be a poet to write poetry. Damn, English is just so beautiful...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
<looks at reading> "Hmmmm ... perhaps if you could get the essence of your path journey - at this moment - traversing from Netzach to your retrograde Venus in the Empress reversed and shift in the nutritional sector ... with an offering (just dream it in your subconscious) to the howling dogs in your reversed Moon over here... you may find a way to track down your lost new cat."

Querant; "Pardon?"

"Put out kitty's din-dins, he will get hungry and eventually come home."
That actually is how I read, only I don't say the first part out loud. The causes leading up to events are always complicated, but their outcome usually isn't. Still, every magic trick is dull and banal when exposed, and even dealing with occult minutiae can seem silly when put into that context. But that's where "intuition" comes in, not as a quick, biased judgement but more like "controlled intuition." Venus doesn't mean Kitty's din-din, but in that place at that time, that's the only thing it can mean. I also believe it is important to translate whatever theoretically spiritual thing you're doing into real terms, especially magick, otherwise you're left with superstition and barren ritual. Doing one's daily sage burnings and affirmations is well and good and makes you feel good, but if you don't make conscious attempts to use that to your advantage, then there's not much point. Same with Tarot; you can do all the soul searching you want and get great readings, but if your husband beats you on a daily basis and you make no attempt to change the situation, all that spiritual development may not be going anywhere.

So, you know, whoever says esoteric studies rule out the emotional or intuitive aspect... well, that's completely wrong, and mighty cold.
Top   #60




 

 


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