A Walk in the Wood...cuts, the Marseilles

Emperor

Yup, our man is looking left (his right) .. maybe to see what his lady is up to.

He holds the same T & O mapped, cross topped orb, and owns a similar heraldic shield. His shield has some indents along the sides... is this so he can use this as a shield in a real battle with straps etc along the back?

He stands casually as if leaning against his seat, with his right leg crossed over his left. His tunic appears to be either fastened or decorated with an epaulet on his right shoulder that comes across his chest in a roped fashion to his left shoulder. He has a crown which includes a feather. (Did they count coup in the 1500's ?)

He wears a low slung belt and appear to me to be in socks instead of shoes. (Did they have sweat socks in the 1500's ?)

His arm appears to be sinking into the chair/throne... he is leaning back a bit... with his leg crossed and the leaning he appears not only to be quite relaxed. That said, he is also quite clear eyed and his scepter is help upright.

If I was using this card in divination, I would think the person represented was so clearly in the right, he need just wait for the situation to come to that realization. This guy does not need to enforce his authority; it is his already.

Or

He is ready to kick your ass as he has his military epaulet and warrior shield at the ready.


It is always a bit surreal describing what a card 'means' out of context.. without a question or other cards it is just a crap shoot IMHO.

Pope

I have looked at 26 pages on symbols.com and have yet to find out what those symbols on the Pope's gloves mean.

I think it's St. John's cross: http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/index-all.php?Spacing=20 Scroll down and click on the most likely one.

thanks Debra...at first I thought it was a nuclear warning

Nicky :

There may not be a big mystery here, a symbol on a TdM card might not be weighed down with the same sort of baggage as the same amount of real estate associated with the thoth or rws images you may be more used to might be.

In the deck I think that you are using, the Pope is depicted as wearing Pontifical Gloves, which was something that almost all bishops wore until the reign of Pope Paul VI who stopped doing a lot of medieval things in 1964 . .

The symbols depicted on the deck I believe you to have are just crosses, which signify that the gloves have been blessed, or have been set aside for a sacred rather than a secular purpose. In the context depicted they can be read as a sub-textual reminder that Christ, our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Part of the whole message that the Pope represents. And particularly supportive of the Apostolic Blessing he is shown imparting upon the clerics in the lower register of the image.

Cheers!!!

CED

I'm sure that other esoteric interpretations are possible, but are perhaps not required for a good feel for the action portrayed.

ETA:

What is really frustrating about the TdM and other historical decks is not so much the symbols used, but discerning what image was meant as opposed to what was actually achieved by the engraver.

Oh way to go Conversus!

Silly me I just figured: Cross? Christian? Ok, these two things go together.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cach...ves&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

scroll down to III.9

and further to (c):

(c) Gloves. The vesting prayer for the gloves contains an Old Testament allusion: Jacob covering his hands when he presented his offering to his father to obtain a blessing; the bishop prays that through his sacrifice he may likewise receive a blessing, that of divine grace.

Click to expand...

A little bit of catch up here.

LLBATELERVR- not the most inviting of persons to run into. First look at the card one gets a kind of shifty-eyed street magician impression. Still going with some of the color ideas ( I like those even if they might not be 100% right.) we see that the table is the same color as the creature in the Fool card. It's the color of ‘awareness and understanding' which means that he might have something to him, he's working on something that might turn out to be true. The look on his face is as if he sees something coming.

Bateleur- One who does conjuring tricks. "This Bateleur is very skilful, very sharp-witted." People who join the theatre in public places, like charlatans, cord dancers, jokers, are also called that way. "He enjoys watching the Bateleurs." It is said of a man who enjoys doing small flexible movements (tours de souplesse) that "He does the Bateleur".



What do we think of the table only having three legs is it just the way it was carved or does it mean something?

If this came up in a reading (you marseilles readers out there) how would you interpret it?

conversus said:

Nicky :

There may not be a big mystery here, a symbol on a TdM card might not be weighed down with the same sort of baggage as the same amount of real estate associated with the thoth or rws images you may be more used to might be.

In the deck I think that you are using, the Pope is depicted as wearing Pontifical Gloves, which was something that almost all bishops wore until the reign of Pope Paul VI who stopped doing a lot of medieval things in 1964 . .

The symbols depicted on the deck I believe you to have are just crosses, which signify that the gloves have been blessed, or have been set aside for a sacred rather than a secular purpose. In the context depicted they can be read as a sub-textual reminder that Christ, our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Part of the whole message that the Pope represents. And particularly supportive of the Apostolic Blessing he is shown imparting upon the clerics in the lower register of the image.

Cheers!!!

CED

I'm sure that other esoteric interpretations are possible, but are perhaps not required for a good feel for the action portrayed.

Click to expand...

RE: Baggage. Perhaps not. I guess the symbols used are mostly to identify the card/person. I am going to get out of the habit of assuming everything means something...perhaps by the time everyone stops debating on how many arms the petitioners have, or if the papess has a double or triple crown

Thanks for the gloves... no clue here.

starlightexp said:

A little bit of catch up here.

Click to expand...

Hurry up... the historians are scaring me

N.

Pope

Kind faced man in Pontifical Gloves, two tiered domed crown, robed, facing forward (to my right). He hold a sceptre which has an orb near the top and at the very top has something which I have no idea what it is supposed to be. *sigh* I know these small items are not all supposed to matter but really these cards are so hard to clearly see. There are two people kneeling below him.. They have very odd top knot hair and one appears to have a hat slung over his left shoulder. The Pope is giving them a blessing with his two fingers, but not looking at them at all. Behind him are two pillars.


Ok, so clearly this card is someone with religious authority. Oddly, he is not even paying attention to his petitioners. If I was reading with this deck and this card came up I would most probably read him as I always have read the Hierophant, except in this case with no esoteric agenda, I would more likely look to the next card to see where his focus lies.

Mr. Noblet's pope



The peculiar object your Pope is holding might be a very poorly observed Crosier, or shepherds crook, which bishops use as subtle hints that they are shepherds of the flock of Christ. . . Mr. Noblet's image manages this part a bit better. But I think that your guy's beard suggests a very kind man.

I apologize for stalking here. The only thing I'd really like to say about the TdM Pope is that he should be given the chance to represent true compassion, kindness, generosity, adult spiritual experience, spirituality. If Benedict XVI is somehow too foreign or toxic for you, consider the Dalai Lama, here.

The Pope reminds us that there are things in this life that are more important than Family, Power, marketable skills, namely compassion, reconciliation, love. The Pope builds bridges, suggests important connections between the individual and society or between an individual and God. He points beyond himself to Love.

The shadow side of the Pope is that tradition may truncate as well as support. Orthodoxy can be a small box if you let it become so. Which may be why Love trumps the Pope.

Again, i apologize for horning-in here. I am glad that you are pursuing this deck!

CED