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Responding to jmd's two requests for clarification:
1. I agree that the elemental attribution is not clear-cut. I tend to follow the Golden Dawn here, though. In the Sefer Yetzirah, temperate is "revayah," the same word translated as "runneth over" in Psalm xxiii, and the Temperance angel is pouring water from one overflowing cup into another, so Cups are Water. Coins measure how many material toys you can buy, so are Earth. Ore for a Sword must go through fire and water with a steam byproduct, so Swords are Air, leaving Wands as bound energy, or Fire.
2. I would prefer scenic pips because the numerical patterns in the Marseille only suggest rather abstract mathematical ideas to me. (Details on request.) I miss the visual suggestions in the Waite (or even Thoth). This is because I am a fairly weak visualizer and not terribly intuitive overall. From another point of view, creating a qabalah-related deck inspired by the Marseille majors and Levi-Papus system might give a qabalist a way to express his or her ideas about qabalah beyond what could be put easily into words.
Hope this answers your questions. If not, I can try again.

Regards,
"Numbers"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw
Image of the wandering jew from 14th century jewish haggadah:
A complete 14th century Golden Haggadah from spain can be viewed online here using the turning pages option (broadband needed):

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/golden.html

Kwaw
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Hi Kwaw


kwaw - I've just seen your blogsite.

I wonder if you could get in touch with me. I've just send a newly edited version of my paper on the Place of the Fool, and now I see that about three paragraphs of your blog comment on the Fool closely co-incides.

Also - I wanted to acknowledge you, as well as Rosanne re Lingua Franca about which I've added a short ref. I don't know how to acknowledge your role properly.

Since you are always careful to acknowledge quotes yourself - and I've never see your blog before - its plainly a case where the nature of the material itself has yeilded similar information.

However - to avoid any suggestion that either of us has borrowed, I'd like the opportunity to send you a copy of the paper. Effectively, your blog has done this for me.

The particular passages I mean are these - (sorry that I can't seem to raise you by PM to discuss it more privately). I omit those not co-inciding:

Quote:
The constellation was thought of as a cosmic giant "His arms extended measure half the skies:
His stride no less." Another name for his belt [and for the central star in particular] was 'the string of pearls'. Perhaps we may see reference to this in the giant stature and string of balls in the pseudo “CHARLES VI” OR “GRINGONNEUR” deck.
...
Kesil has also the meaning of arrogance, and in relation to Orion ... the Sola Busca...

....
In Egyptian star lore Orion is the abode of the soul of mummified Osiris, God of the underworld and of the dead.

[D. notes: I refer to this in relation to Augustine's speaking of mummified bodies as Gabbaras, which a Latin speaker might mistake for the Syriac 'Gabbar' found on Islamicate instruments as one name for Orion.. of course speakers of Syriac often knew Hebrew, and Latin too, which is why Climacus' description of the 'man of stone' has relevance.]

The Sola Busca Matto too has the feathers in his hair, a string with three balls ....

[I refer to the Sola Busca in relation to the Philocalus. I refer to the feathers of the Visconti-Sforza card, but by reference to older 'Hermes' types in western art, as well as to older, and contemporary, practices in Egypt and Ethiopia. In that regard, I mention the establishment within the Vatican city of houses for the Ethiopian churchmen and others of the old 'Chaldean' churches. The records of the Ethiopians in S.Sefano degli Abyssinia apparently go back to the mid-1300s]

Oh - and as mentioned in another thread, I had independently discovered the multi-lingual cues in some of the Charles VI cards, but had left the Hebrew-Chaldean in footnotes, and concentrated on the Latin, Syriac and Arabic lexica within the text.

- Still I would like to acknowledge that you are working in much the same area, and especially re the Lingua Franca whose relevance you discovered.

- no need to reply in a post: please feel free to PM.
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In further response to numbers above...

I am aware of some of the reasons for the suggested overlays the GD makes - my point was more that these are additions, not intrinsic to the deck. Even 'runneth over' does not show that cups are intrinsically connected to the element of water, for example, nor that swords, that requires metal and fire, is related to air (similar arguments can be made for connecting it to each of the other three elements).

My point above was not asking for clarification as to the GD's manner of working, but rather that in terms of the Marseille, no elements are connected to the suits - unless one overlays these, but that, of course, is no intrinsic connection, and not therefore part of the Marseille.

To have a 'Marseille-inspired' deck modified by the views of the GD (or Levi, Papus and Wirth), and scenic illustrations also based on the GD, there are in fact many already around - and that's what makes them exactly that, and not Marseille.
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Emblems and elements


I think you'll find a considerable body of reference in the medieval texts and legends. Ginsberg is good here. I won't say that they are consistent, but the allusions are there.

Other than the 'cup-west' emblem originally intended, one could refer the 'cup' to the elements in different ways e.g. by reference to the religious or to the agricultural allusions, or the medical.


Trouble is there is an immense variety of appropriate symbolism - as for example the idea that the 4 rivers of paradise - source of all fresh water - flow from a 'font' as cup located in the north.

I reckon you can assign emblems to elements differently, to suit the pattern of reference you want. But I believe it was originally meant to indicate 'west' and an ultimate victory, whose time was known to none but God.

I've already posted the medical correspondences of direction-element-humor etc in another thread. I think they may be relevant to medieval Jewish practice too, since Kairouan had been a really important centre of medical learning before its Jewish population was expelled during the second wave (I think) of the Muslim invasion of North Africa.
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I hope it's fairly clear that my difference in perspective with JMD is that I think the Levi/Papus system is *implicit* in the Marseille majors, and JMD disagrees.
With one exception, every deck I've seen with scenic pips has used the GD letter correlations. The exception (which I've finally just obtained) is the Tarot of the Ages. Another deck with *vaguely* the same approach is the Nigel Jackson, so from my perspective these two are closest to what I was suggesting.
***********************
Showing how little I know, who's Ginsberg, or, more exactly, what is the name of his book that DianeOD was citing?

Regards,
Numbers
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Hi Numbers,

Quote:
Originally Posted by numbers
I hope it's fairly clear that my difference in perspective with JMD is that I think the Levi/Papus system is *implicit* in the Marseille majors, and JMD disagrees.
With one exception, every deck I've seen with scenic pips has used the GD letter correlations. The exception (which I've finally just obtained) is the Tarot of the Ages. Another deck with *vaguely* the same approach is the Nigel Jackson, so from my perspective these two are closest to what I was suggesting.
***********************
Showing how little I know, who's Ginsberg, or, more exactly, what is the name of his book that DianeOD was citing?

Regards,
Numbers
That'd be Louis Ginzberg (also spelled Ginsberg and a few other ways), "Legends of the Jews"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Ginzberg

"The Legends of the Jews"
http://philologos.org/__eb-lotj/default.htm

See in particular volume I, about the Alphabet -
http://philologos.org/__eb-lotj/vol1/one.htm#2

There is a lot of alphabet lore scattered about in it. Thanks goodness something like this is in the public domain.

Ross
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Thanks. I've got it bookmarked now.

Regards,
Numbers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell
See in particular volume I, about the Alphabet -
http://philologos.org/__eb-lotj/vol1/one.htm#2
Hi, Ross.

Interesting that vav and heh were disqualified as being too holy (composing the divine Name), but not yod. Hmm. Perhaps yod is but the spark from which the Name arises, or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by numbers
I hope it's fairly clear that my difference in perspective with JMD is that I think the Levi/Papus system is *implicit* in the Marseille majors, and JMD disagrees.
Funny: I think the bardic association of trumps with letters is explicit in Tarot of Marseilles . . . but I can't seem to get to first base convincing anyone of this.

The sacrificed oak-hero (D-dalet, wood of doors) is the Hanged Man. The ash (N-nun) the forest gave up to woodsmen for axe-handles (which became its Grim Reaper) in the Aesop fable is trump XIII. The blessing of birch's (B-beyt's) white bark and its diminutive, childlike appearance both appear in LePape, where two small figures are being brought before him to be blessed. The martial discipline of the holly bush (T-tav) -- the law of the phalanx making many little pricks one big one -- is the woman restraining the lion's roar in LaForce. And so on.

This is based on bardic numeration (numerical order H=0, A E I O B M P F K G T D N L R S U Kk Ii Ss Aa, which translates by careful analysis to cheyt=0, alef-heh-zayin-ayin-beyt-mem-peh-samekh-kaf-gimel-tav-dalet-nun-lamedh-reysh-shin-vav-qof-yod-tzaddi-teyt: teyt is Aa by process of elimination [to be honest] but fits shapewise its station at the loins, libra, while samekh is the Hebrew replacement for F-alder, the Corn Spirit sprouting out beyond the tongue, at aries-the-head, the tip or top of the tongue [the body or zodiac], where samekh actually is).

But if you are comfortable (as everyone else evidently is) with implicit . . .
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Possible experiment


After some time, I've thought of another way to approach the question of correlations. If anyone knows a qabalist who is interested in the mystical significance of the Hebrew letters (I should think that all of them are), but is *not* intimately familiar with tarot, perhaps an experiment is possible. Give the qabalist a Visconti tarot with no numbers or names and see how they would label/arrange the major arcana according to which one best illustrates the hidden meaning of which letter. Even the response of just one qabalist would be interesting, and here I should think that there's no such thing as a failed experiment.

Regards,
"Numbers"
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