Esoteric conundrum (or oversight)?

Crowley and the G.D. seem to differ fundamentally on an important
aspect of Tarot-meditation -

How are the 78 cards to be listed in order?

Book T (Mathers?) lists them from Ace of Wands (1) through World (78)
http://www.tarot.org.il/Library/Mathers/Book-T.html ;

Crowley implies a different order in the Book of Lies chapter used at
the beginning of the Book of Thoth ("Wheel and Whoa!") -
"Be this thy task, to see how each card springs necessarily from each
other card, even in due order from The Fool unto The Ten of Coins."

Thus, Fool is the first (1) and Ten of Coins is the last (78), and
there should be a way to conceive of how each card generates the
next, "in due order". Crowley does an admirable job of this for the
pip cards (applying the "Naples Arrangment"), but for the rest he
doesn't do it.

So we have the problem - perhaps Mathers didn't intend his order of 78
to convey the "every card generates the next in due order" (how does
the Knave of Pentacles generate the 5 of Wands? Perhaps we can
speculate. But how does the 4 of Cups (number 56) generate The Fool
(number 57)? That is more difficult - thus it doesn't seem likely
Mathers had this exercise in mind);

but Crowley surely did have the exercise in mind, and so we must ask
which order he intended to be the "due order". In the Book of Thoth,
he starts with the Fool and goes through the trumps in the TdM order,
and then gives the 16 Court cards according to the G.D. elemental
hierarchy, Fire/Wands, Water/Cups, Air/Swords, Earth/Disks. Then he
goes Ace through Ten in each suit according to the same elemental
hierarchy.

Is this the order he is really suggesting? That is, does the Princess
of Wands "generate" the King of Cups? Does Fire always generate Water,
Water Air, and Air Earth? How does the Princess of Disks generate the
Ace of Wands?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?


(I was awake last night thinking about the history of symbolism
attached to cards, starting with John of Rheinfelden's 1377 report
that the deck represented "the state of the world now current" (status
mundi nunc modernis), and that two suits were "good" and two "evil";

this led me to remember Dummett's observation to the effect that it
was a pity that esoteric writers didn't know about the old Tarot rule
that two suits ran ace-low ten-high, while the other two ran ace-high
ten-low, since it would have given them a richer symbolism to draw on;

this led me to consider how it was a neat coincidence that, if there
were a hierarchy of suits in tarot games and it were the same as the
GD hierarchy (Batons/Cups/Swords/Coins), then the 10 of Coins would
indeed be the lowest and last card in the cycle.)

Ross

Correct order ?

As far as the order of the minor cards is concerned I think the key may be in the title of the Ace's: The Root of the Power. This Root splits into a four-fold division corresponding to the formula IHVH, and thus you get the Court cards representing elemental sub-divisions of the original Ace's. Then follow the natural order, 2-10.

So the order might be: Major Arcana 0 Fool - XXI Universe. Ace of Wands, Wand Court cards, 2 -10 of Wands. Ace of Cups, Cups Court cards, 2-10 of Cups. Ace of Swords, Swords Court cards, 2-10 of Swords. Ace of Disks, Disks Court cards, 2-10 of Disks.

Both systems are very similar in many ways, with the focus on a different cyclical system.

The separation of the Courts is consistent, in both cases ordered according to the tetragrammatron. (Yod, He, Vau, He; or Fire, Water, Air, Earth). The majors ordering and separation from the minors is the same (except for the swap of Strength/Justice and He/Tzaddi)

The big difference is the minors. Crowley emphasising the qabalistic system, 1-10, Fire - Earth, in which case the 10 of Disks being the lowest of the low (Malkuth in Assiah) generates the Ace of Wands (Kether in Atlziluth, the highest of the high) i.e. a new beginning. The important thing is its a cyclical system.

The opening paragraph of the Book of Thoth

Crowley said:

At first site one would suppose this arrangement to be arbitrary, but it is not. It is necessitated, as will appear later, by the structure of the universe, and in particular the Solar System, as symbolised by the Holy Qabalah.

Click to expand...

The golden dawn system has listed the cards according to the astrological system. Starting at Leo (an alternative beginning to Aries that preceeded the GD I think) it moves through the minors in the order of the cycle of the star signs. Again a cyclical system. It also necessitates the complete removal of the Aces from the minors cycle as they have no astrological concordances, but only elemental.

So with Crowleys order the important thing I think is that Kether -> Chokmah (and and therefore Ace -> 2) while in the GD Leo -> Virgo and hence 7 Wands -> 8 Pentacles. Whether the minors comes before or after the majors etc.. seems a seconadry consideration.

One could also consider that the Aces -> The Fool -> the Twos - > Empress -> the Threes etc.. and gain some new insights that way also.

Aeon418 said:

As far as the order of the minor cards is concerned I think the key may be in the title of the Ace's: The Root of the Power. This Root splits into a four-fold division corresponding to the formula IHVH, and thus you get the Court cards representing elemental sub-divisions of the original Ace's. Then follow the natural order, 2-10.

So the order might be: Major Arcana 0 Fool - XXI Universe. Ace of Wands, Wand Court cards, 2 -10 of Wands. Ace of Cups, Cups Court cards, 2-10 of Cups. Ace of Swords, Swords Court cards, 2-10 of Swords. Ace of Disks, Disks Court cards, 2-10 of Disks.

Click to expand...

This arrangement makes eminent sense, especially when we are obliged to impose a hierarchy among the elements.

It is much easier for me to visualize it non-linearly and as a sphere, with the World producing the "root" of the elements in the Aces, then each element arching over a quarter of the sphere, joining again in the tens. But I will be happy to experiment with the strict linear hierarchy along the circle/wheel as well; no use being lazy.

The above might be better expressed as a "Four Worlds" arrangement of the cards - Atziluth, "Nobility", are the Trumps; Briah, "Creation" are the Aces; Yetzirah, "Formation" are the Courts; Assiah, "Making" (the made) are the pips.

Come to think of it, maybe that is the key here, the four worlds are the linear sequence of the suits; Wands is Atziluth in Assiah, so it is has right to be "above" Cups, which is Briah, etc.

Thanks for the insight,

Ross

similia said:

Both systems are very similar in many ways, with the focus on a different cyclical system.

Click to expand...

I agree - the problem for me has been to understand what Crowley might have meant if he had spelled out which card followed which. That it is a cycle is clear - we go along the wheel -ROTA. But in what order do the 78 parts of this cycle come?

The separation of the Courts is consistent, in both cases ordered according to the tetragrammatron. (Yod, He, Vau, He; or Fire, Water, Air, Earth). The majors ordering and separation from the minors is the same (except for the swap of Strength/Justice and He/Tzaddi)

The big difference is the minors. Crowley emphasising the qabalistic system, 1-10, Fire - Earth, in which case the 10 of Disks being the lowest of the low (Malkuth in Assiah) generates the Ace of Wands (Kether in Atlziluth, the highest of the high) i.e. a new beginning. The important thing is its a cyclical system.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure the quote about meditation on the Fool through the 10 of Disks would justify this interpretation. It seems as if the 10 of Disks could generate the Fool, since it is the only next card possible. The problem is that it seems it must be - for this exercise at least - a linear system, a straight line across the Abyss. So each card must be in one place only; i.e. we cannot say that the pips are "only" Assiah, and we must make the jump to Atziluth to begin the cycle anew. There has to be a harmonious progression. 10 of Disks must be linked to the Fool in some way.

The golden dawn system has listed the cards according to the astrological system. Starting at Leo (an alternative beginning to Aries that preceeded the GD I think) it moves through the minors in the order of the cycle of the star signs. Again a cyclical system. It also necessitates the complete removal of the Aces from the minors cycle as they have no astrological concordances, but only elemental.

So with Crowleys order the important thing I think is that Kether -> Chokmah (and and therefore Ace -> 2) while in the GD Leo -> Virgo and hence 7 Wands -> 8 Pentacles. Whether the minors comes before or after the majors etc.. seems a seconadry consideration.

One could also consider that the Aces -> The Fool -> the Twos - > Empress -> the Threes etc.. and gain some new insights that way also.

Click to expand...

I agree it seems secondary whether the minors come after or before the majors. But Crowley's point seems to be, wherever you start, there is a way to get to the next card of the 78; not just one of 4 possible cards, but one exact card. I don't know if the system was ever worked out properly, as Crowley expresses it. Mathers' makes a great deal more sense, but he does not seem to have a linear meditation in mind. He has Four Worlds, interpenetrating, but not a strict linear sequence. Crowley clearly implies a linear structure - which is not a criticism, I really think it can be done - but it is unclear how exactly he intends one to follow it.

Ross

Ross G Caldwell said:

i.e. we cannot say that the pips are "only" Assiah, and we must make the jump to Atziluth to begin the cycle anew. There has to be a harmonious progression. 10 of Disks must be linked to the Fool in some way.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if this is a reference to my comments, but just in case I will say I did not mean to imply the pips relate to assiah, but that the Disks do as earth cards (specifically the 10 of disks being the most earthy).

I don't see a connection between the 10 Disks and the Fool, but rather the 10 Disks and the Ace Wands. It seems more logical to me to consider the Courts, Majors and Minors seperately, but also overlapping and interrelating.

Ross G Caldwell said:

I agree it seems secondary whether the minors come after or before the majors. But Crowley's point seems to be, wherever you start, there is a way to get to the next card of the 78; not just one of 4 possible cards, but one exact card. .

Click to expand...

Yeah that was not a reference to Crolwey's ideas, but just an alternative idea of a way to order the cards. I guess my own thinking is the one true order does not matter/exist, but there are multiple possibilities that can overlap and offer insight.

Duquette insists that the order must be Majors (Fool - Universe), Aces (wands, cups, swords, disks), Courts (Knight, Queen, Prince, Princess, all wandsthen all cups etc..) followed by the small cards 2-10 each element in the YHVH order again. I assume this is based on Crowley, but have not the time to read through the whole Book of Thoth tonight

I wonder should the cycle be uni-directional, or can both directions be entertained?

similia said:

Yeah that was not a reference to Crolwey's ideas, but just an alternative idea of a way to order the cards. I guess my own thinking is the one true order does not matter/exist, but there are multiple possibilities that can overlap and offer insight.

Click to expand...

I agree, this is the way I tend to think of it all. But I wanted to explore what Crowley might have meant by "Fool...(to)... 10 of Coins", where each cards "springs necessarily out of each other card, in due order" - it's the "due order" that gets me. What is the due order he intends? If each card is one of 78, no matter how you distribute them, you can always find the next in the sequence. What sequence is it?

Duquette insists that the order must be Majors (Fool - Universe), Aces (wands, cups, swords, disks), Courts (Knight, Queen, Prince, Princess, all wandsthen all cups etc..) followed by the small cards 2-10 each element in the YHVH order again. I assume this is based on Crowley, but have not the time to read through the whole Book of Thoth tonight

I wonder should the cycle be uni-directional, or can both directions be entertained?

Click to expand...

Of course - it's a cycle! But he seems to imply it is a *linear* cycle that yields the best results - crossing the Abyss, at least on the intellectual plane. A line can be traced both ways, you can come to a point from either of two directions, but it can't be more than a line, it must be two-dimensional - i.e. it can't be a three-dimensional object, like a sphere or polyhedron, with multiple ways of getting to a point. On a line, strictly speaking (and I'm sure he was), there are only two ways to get to point A - from the point just before A, or the point just after A. That is the sequence of 78 cards, where each card occupies one point or number of the sequence.

I'm sure he had a sequence in mind - but it doesn't seem to have been the Golden Dawn sequence of Book T, which doesn't start with the Fool. Even if you enter at any point you want in Book T's sequence, you can't get from 10 of Coins to the Fool; the 10 of Pentacles is number 26, while the Fool is number 57. Crowley's sequence is obviously "...9 of Coins, 10 of Coins, Fool, Magician...".

I'm not arguing about what might be the *correct* sequence, only what was the sequence Crowley said would bring you across the Abyss (or whether he really had one).

It could be that he didn't really mean to imply what I'm taking him to mean, but I think that is the clearest interpretation of the words.

similia said:

Duquette insists that the order must be Majors (Fool - Universe), Aces (wands, cups, swords, disks), Courts (Knight, Queen, Prince, Princess, all wandsthen all cups etc..) followed by the small cards 2-10 each element in the YHVH order again. I assume this is based on Crowley, but have not the time to read through the whole Book of Thoth tonight

Click to expand...

I think I might agree with Duquette, that this is Crowley's intended order. It fits the Four Worlds typology, and it is based on the G.D. Book T teaching, with the only differences being that, A) the trumps come first, not last, and B) the pip cards are arranged by suit/element, and not according to decantes.

Otherwise, it is the same system.

Atziluth - Major Arcana
Briah - Aces
Yetzirah - Courts
Assiah - Minor Arcana (Pips)

Book T says they are Keys

I've just been reading Isreal Regargie's Garden of Pomegranites, edited by the Cicero's. And I think what the Cicero's point out may be of help, along with a couple of general comments:

1. There is no doubt that the RWS and Thoth are in and of themselves books of the Qabala.
2. Book T was pretty low in the GD pecking order and given to folks who weren't adepts. So it's not to be expected that the whole system is going to be revealed in Book T. That would be for the inner grades. I think of Book T as an instruction manual on how to color and lay out the cards. See Page 165+ in Chicken Qabala for some nice diagrams.
3. One thing Book T reiterates, as does Crowley, is that the majors/Atu are the "keys." Nobody hands keys out to novices. So you don't see much on the majors in Book T, which surprised me at first.
4. In describing pathworking with the Tree of Life, the Cicero's suggest that the symbol of the Keys appears somewhere around Daath in Kether. I'm going to infer from this comment, that the majors, the keys, are up there in Kether/Atziluth as an architypal group. Remember that the Fool is the archetype of archetypes because he is O and from the perspective of the Tarot, he is Kether, with the rest of the majors showing an aspect of the Fool, as the other sephiroth show aspects of Kether.

And I'm going to further infer from the 10 of Pents being the last card according to Crowley, and from appearing in Book T, that the whole minor shebang is in Malkuth. But, Book T doesn't tell you that cause you aren't a high enough grade, oh lowley initiate.

Clear as mud, huh? Anyway, the bottom line is that I too think Duquette's ordering is the "correct" one.

Esoteric Conundrum...

Aeon418 said:

....

So the order might be: Major Arcana 0 Fool - XXI Universe. Ace of Wands, Wand Court cards, 2 -10 of Wands. Ace of Cups, Cups Court cards, 2-10 of Cups. Ace of Swords, Swords Court cards, 2-10 of Swords. Ace of Disks, Disks Court cards, 2-10 of Disks.

Click to expand...

Thank you, Aeon418, for your review.
This seems the intended sequence by the architect/Architect, which obviously and significantly makes Fool the Alpha and 10 of Disks the Omega. First, the first and foremost shift of dimension, Ace of Wands arising out of Universe (what a mystery), as we travel from the Kosmic Ultimate to the realm of Atziluth/Wands, with Wand Courts and 2--10 of Wands, thence to Ace of Cups, Courts, onto 10 of Cups , taking us from luminous Atziluth to watery Briah, followed by Ace of Swords and Courts and 2--10 of Swords, from Briah to airy Yetzirah, concluded with 10 of swords changing over into earthy Ace of Disks and Disk Courts and 2-10 of Disks , from Yetzirah to Asiyah, finally all the way to the most earthy of all, 10 of Disks. Flowing, unfolding, dimension-changing, densifying with hidden immanent light to the end.
-- So it's as much a descent or emanation of Spirit into matter as it is a linear path : transformation of dimension into dimension or veil into veil is the Way this works, the Way the Universe works. And as is the Macrocosm, so is the Microcosm. We find ourselves, all we are, mirrored herein, from top to bottom, from bottom to top.