Differences Between the RW and Visconti Sforza Decks

Tinevisce

Hi, so I'm wicked excited about getting my Visconti Sforza from Amazon in a fortnight- yay for the new job! While I know that both the RW and the Visconti decks have a one-to-one correspondence for each of the cards, would any of you say that there are differences in the meanings between the two decks?
 

rwcarter

Welcome to Aeclectic, Tinevisce!

There actually isn't a 1:1 correspondence between the Rider Waite and Visconti Sforza decks as the RWS has scenic minors and the Visconti Sforza doesn't. The Visconti is of the Marseilles school while the Rider is a Golden Dawn deck. So the minors traditionally have completely different associations to them. If I remember correctly, the Visconti also has some different Majors that the RWS doesn't have.

Much like apples and oranges are both fruit, they aren't the same. Both decks are tarot, but are completely different.

Rodney
 

Tinevisce

Welcome to Aeclectic, Tinevisce!

There actually isn't a 1:1 correspondence between the Rider Waite and Visconti Sforza decks as the RWS has scenic minors and the Visconti Sforza doesn't. The Visconti is of the Marseilles school while the Rider is a Golden Dawn deck. So the minors traditionally have completely different associations to them. If I remember correctly, the Visconti also has some different Majors that the RWS doesn't have.

Much like apples and oranges are both fruit, they aren't the same. Both decks are tarot, but are completely different.

Rodney

Oh, wow, I didn't have a clue that the minors would have different associations- but I s'pose that'll only serve to keep me even more invested into this beautiful deck.
If I may ask, which deck(s) is(are) your favourite(s)?
 

whipsilk

Hi Tinevisce -
Welcome to Aeclectic Tarot! I'm excited that you've branched out into a Visconti for your second deck - it certainly is a beautiful, evocative deck. I think there are (or at least were) three different makers who published them - Lo Scarabeo, US Games, and Il Meneghello. The latter is a limited edition and I don't think is offered on Amazon, so you probably got either the Lo Scarabeo or the US Games - although I think there's a 'kit' version from Race Point of the Lo Scarabeo cards. The main differences are in the size of the cards (the US Games cards are quite large, while the LS cards will be closer in size to your RWS cards), the fact that the LS cards are a lavish restoration while the US Games cards are a more evocative and ancient-looking reproduction (the colors are much less bright), and the artist used to supply the four missing cards - although you probably won't be able to tell which are 'modern' at first glance; I couldn't.

Don't let the so-called 'non-scenic' pips (the forty cards numbered one through ten in each suit) put you off. Many readers learn to read with non-scenic pips, or you can read with just the Majors and the Court cards. The easiest way to read with the numbered cards is to combine attributes of the suit (you probably already know those from your RWS deck) with the number for a reasonably unique definition. I don't know if you read 'intuitively' or use basic meanings, but if the latter, you only have to learn the attributes of the ten numbers (pretty basic numerology) then combine them with your knowledge of the suit (and use nearby cards) to get a meaning. There are a lot of good resources here on AT that will help you read with non-scenic pips.

I hope you thoroughly enjoy your new deck. Let us know what you think after you get the cards. Even if you don't read with them, the Visconti cards are quite beautiful to look at and enjoy - and that was probably their original function way back in the fifteenth century.
 

Tinevisce

Hi Tinevisce -
Welcome to Aeclectic Tarot! I'm excited that you've branched out into a Visconti for your second deck - it certainly is a beautiful, evocative deck. I think there are (or at least were) three different makers who published them - Lo Scarabeo, US Games, and Il Meneghello. The latter is a limited edition and I don't think is offered on Amazon, so you probably got either the Lo Scarabeo or the US Games - although I think there's a 'kit' version from Race Point of the Lo Scarabeo cards. The main differences are in the size of the cards (the US Games cards are quite large, while the LS cards will be closer in size to your RWS cards), the fact that the LS cards are a lavish restoration while the US Games cards are a more evocative and ancient-looking reproduction (the colors are much less bright), and the artist used to supply the four missing cards - although you probably won't be able to tell which are 'modern' at first glance; I couldn't.

Don't let the so-called 'non-scenic' pips (the forty cards numbered one through ten in each suit) put you off. Many readers learn to read with non-scenic pips, or you can read with just the Majors and the Court cards. The easiest way to read with the numbered cards is to combine attributes of the suit (you probably already know those from your RWS deck) with the number for a reasonably unique definition. I don't know if you read 'intuitively' or use basic meanings, but if the latter, you only have to learn the attributes of the ten numbers (pretty basic numerology) then combine them with your knowledge of the suit (and use nearby cards) to get a meaning. There are a lot of good resources here on AT that will help you read with non-scenic pips.

I hope you thoroughly enjoy your new deck. Let us know what you think after you get the cards. Even if you don't read with them, the Visconti cards are quite beautiful to look at and enjoy - and that was probably their original function way back in the fifteenth century.

Hello!

While ordering, I did feel that ordering a second deck post a scant three months of reading experience might have been a bit of a suicide mission, reading wise- but I was enthralled by the artwork of the Visconti Sforza: I'm getting the LS version from Amazon. One of my problems is living in India, where it can be quite difficult to get a hold of things like Tarot decks; and it gets expensive to ship it all the way from the States or Europe.

I do know that four of the cards were missing from the VS deck, and I remember quite clearly that one was the Devil- I do not, however, remember the others.

As for reading the cards, I mostly tend to stick to the traditional meanings; although I've had the odd case or two where the pictures lead me to read a card in a certain way that isn't traditional- so mostly traditional, with a dash of intuition thrown in?

Combining numerology with Suit qualities sounds like an interesting approach; one that would need a lot of esoteric knowledge, me thinks- certainly a lot harder than having visual imagery to help you out; but the challenge would be a fun one, me thinks.

So far as the RW is concerned, I haven't used the numerological aspects of the pips in my readings; but I remember one where I kept drawing 9 numbered cards- I took it to mean that the journey the cards were outlining were almost at an end, even if I couldn't see it.

In terms of the Majors, would you say that any of the Major VS cards depart dramatically from their RW counterparts; in your experience?
 

whipsilk

In terms of the Majors, would you say that any of the Major VS cards depart dramatically from their RW counterparts; in your experience?
In terms of the majors, although some might disagree, I don't think there is a dramatic difference between the Visconti cards and their RWS counterparts, except...

The Visconti cards lack most of the small esoteric details present in all the RWS cards. Just as an example, the Fool lacks the precipice, the doggy companion, the butterfly he's following (in some decks), the flower he carries in RWS, the bundle he's got in many decks. But there are other details in the Visconti cards if you look for them, and they can help give some direction in reading the cards. They just weren't put there for esoteric purposes.
 

Tarotwolf

It seems to me these two decks are about as different as you can get when comparing tarot decks. I think it's great that you'll be able to compare and contrast the images in these two decks because they are both "classic tarot". The other leg of the "big three classics" would be the Thoth deck. Most other decks out there tend to fall within one of these three stylistic categories. Have fun exploring each of them!
 

Sibylline

Hello!

While ordering, I did feel that ordering a second deck post a scant three months of reading experience might have been a bit of a suicide mission, reading wise- but I was enthralled by the artwork of the Visconti Sforza: I'm getting the LS version from Amazon.

Hooray for the LoS Visconti deck! I have this one too, and I think it's really well done. The deck is complete, and I seriously couldn't tell which cards were reproduced.

I wouldn't say it's a suicide mission, but I will say it will be a good challenge if you've been reading on the RW. If you can read on the Visconti, you'll be able to read most decks that don't have illustrated minors...so that's a good thing. Also, you'll find the images on the Majors are incredibly different at times that may leave you scratching your head.

Since the pamphlet that comes with the LoS Visconti is vastly lacking, I suggest a book to help you out. As far as I know, there aren't many. I bought a used copy of this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Visconti-Taro...qid=1365313243&sr=1-6&keywords=visconti+tarot

It does a decent job of explaining the era in which the Visconti was put together that will help you out with some of the images of the Majors. The second half of the book contains divinatory meanings for the cards.

Congrats on your new deck :)
 

Tinevisce

In terms of the majors, although some might disagree, I don't think there is a dramatic difference between the Visconti cards and their RWS counterparts, except...

The Visconti cards lack most of the small esoteric details present in all the RWS cards. Just as an example, the Fool lacks the precipice, the doggy companion, the butterfly he's following (in some decks), the flower he carries in RWS, the bundle he's got in many decks. But there are other details in the Visconti cards if you look for them, and they can help give some direction in reading the cards. They just weren't put there for esoteric purposes.

Quite interestingly, I saw an original essay online from someone who theorised that a certain amount of esoteric knowledge did go into the deck; I'll see if I can scrounge it up again.

In case of non scenic minors, would you say that some of the visual depth is missing; as compared to scenic minors? For me, part of the reason why the RW is so rich is because of the intricate details provided by the minors, a lot of which stem directly from the illustrations.

I mean, the majors, to me, are like sweeping strokes- the minors have such delicious nuances.

Since I'm sure a skilled reader would be able to give an equally insightful reading from a VS as a RW (say), how d'you feel that the VS (and other decks with non scenic minors) get those nuances across?
 

Greg Stanton

Welcome to Aeclectic, Tinevisce!

There actually isn't a 1:1 correspondence between the Rider Waite and Visconti Sforza decks as the RWS has scenic minors and the Visconti Sforza doesn't. The Visconti is of the Marseilles school while the Rider is a Golden Dawn deck. So the minors traditionally have completely different associations to them. If I remember correctly, the Visconti also has some different Majors that the RWS doesn't have.

Much like apples and oranges are both fruit, they aren't the same. Both decks are tarot, but are completely different.

Rodney
I wouldn't say the VS is a Marseilles deck. Both are early tarots to be sure, but the iconography is considerably different, and there are six court cards for each suit rather than four.

You can use whatever system you like to read with decks that have pips, but whatever method you construct for yourself, be consistent. If you don't feel comfortable reading with the extra courts, set the eight extra cards aside.