Can Tarot really foretell the Future ?

EyeAmEye

Michael Sternbach said:
While it's true that everything and anything is possible,

That statement is not true. It's an assumption. In the same vein as my assumption that everything is not possible.

For me, all I need to do is look at reality to see that the concept of everything and anything being possible is way off the mark. I could be just as easily wrong as you, though. The only thing I do know is humans truly KNOW nothing.

Michael Sternbach

EyeAmEye said:
That statement is not true. It's an assumption. In the same vein as my assumption that everything is not possible.

For me, all I need to do is look at reality to see that the concept of everything and anything being possible is way off the mark. I could be just as easily wrong as you, though. The only thing I do know is humans truly KNOW nothing.

That statement meant to express that a LOT is possible - basically. Taken at face value, it may be somewhat of an an exaggeration - but not that much.

While I don't quite agree that humans know NOTHING, it is true that the knowledge at our disposal is very limited in the light of what's really out there to know.

EyeAmEye

Michael Sternbach said:
That statement meant to express that a LOT is possible - basically. Taken at face value, it may be somewhat of an an exaggeration - but not that much.

While I don't quite agree that humans know NOTHING, it is true that the knowledge at our disposal is very limited in the light of what's really out there to know.

I know what you meant, just pointing out how people have a tendency to express belief or assumption as fact. I won't exonerate myself, I do it too more often than I should. Problem with it though is that strongly held beliefs tend to be rooted in those assumptions. Read through most of this thread and that becomes readily apparent.

Nikita_

Farzon said:
But the cards are made in factories aren't they? There might be old fashioned magic around but only when you cast it. The cards are only cards without a magician. Magic doesn't work by itself as far as I know &#55357;&#56844;.

Furthermore even if they are man-made there is no reason not to have respect for the work of man. What I was trying to say is, if they are of otherworldly origin then you can see these symbols as translations. Like every holy book out there. Believing that it's the book itself that is holy is fundamentalism.

Even the magician is nothing but a channel, farzon...just like a pack of cards....the source is elsewhere....just look at the RW major arcana n. 1....

Nikita_

Michael Sternbach said:
While it's true that everything and anything is possible, not everything is equally probable - at least as seen from the universe that we actually live in. We are not talking about anarchy here, unless you look at this from a purely 'Newtonian' universe.

By the way, talking about the science/magic question, personally, my interest lies in connecting the two with each other. This has to do with linking the two parts of that grey mass between our ears, also. As magic becomes more scientific, science becomes more magical.

I also believe that science and magic coincide...and one day, it will be demonstrated...just like mediums, psychics, and the likes are not especially gifted people, just human beings that are able to use a part of their brains that we all have....but forgot how to use it....neurological studies have so far only been able to understand and demonstrate the use of about 30 per cent of our brains...the rest of it, a large majority, is still totally unknown...what do you think its hidden abilities are ? Anyway, I don't want to go off topic...

Michael Sternbach

EyeAmEye said:
I know what you meant, just pointing out how people have a tendency to express belief or assumption as fact. I won't exonerate myself, I do it too more often than I should. Problem with it though is that strongly held beliefs tend to be rooted in those assumptions. Read through most of this thread and that becomes readily apparent.

It should be obvious that I was expressing my opinion, IMO. :laugh:

Farzon

Nikita_ said:
Even the magician is nothing but a channel, farzon...just like a pack of cards....the source is elsewhere....just look at the RW major arcana n. 1....

But this does not make the Magician almighty. Magic is no way to apotheosis.

I just read Paul H. Barlow ' s Tarot and the Magus and he reports of a fellow magician who nearly died because of dealing with forces which were beyond his power.

If the source of magic is divine that would make the Magician the commander of God, which is impossible.
If the source is in the spiritual realm - spirits, demons and the like - then those are still imperfect creatures, not God.

Michael Sternbach

Nikita_ said:
I also believe that science and magic coincide...and one day, it will be demonstrated...just like mediums, psychics, and the likes are not especially gifted people, just human beings that are able to use a part of their brains that we all have....but forgot how to use it....neurological studies have so far only been able to understand and demonstrate the use of about 30 per cent of our brains...the rest of it, a large majority, is still totally unknown...what do you think its hidden abilities are ? Anyway, I don't want to go off topic...

I guess we agree with each other on this; being gifted plays a role here only in the way it does in other fields (music, cooking... you name it); we're not talking about things "supernatural" here (I have no idea what that's supposed to mean). And just like skills in those other field, psychic abilities can be trained. Some of you may not agree, but... really good Tarot readers always have a certain level of psychic skills. Those are the ones who can also make more reliable statements regarding future events. Nonetheless, some kind of uncertainty principle not unlike the one we find in quantum mechanics is always at work. Hey, there's a thought... :lightbulb

ravenest

Nikita_ said:
So, if you read for others, how do you deal with this problem ? Do you inform them that, as far as the future goes, we are only dealing with possibilities here ?
Second question : are you so sure that it's what we decide to do-or not do-that influences or changes the course of events ?

Not only does Rabbi ravenest race around town saying 'I have all the answers, who has the questions?' - H e runs around answering questions addressed to others !

So sorry Michael .....

But I wanted to answer this as well. As it is a problem ... or was a problem for me ... people wanting or assumed a type of reading that I didnt do -

Me: "First up, I am NOT psychic nor will I try to predict any events."

First up ... that's how I would start (after hello and social chat of course

)

ravenest

EyeAmEye said:
I personally never understood why someone would use it for self-reflection. Self-analysis can be done without cards or any tool other than yourself and a small bit of objectivity. If you lack that objectivity, then I don't see how the cards would help anyway. Just my opinion though.

Divination can be done like that as well, you dont need cards or any tools actually, they just assist ... I actually do a 'type of divination (that isnt right every time

) that I dont use the cards for at all (and it is actually more accurate if I dont use the cards, but that is an aside)

- how the cards can help ; one way is , even if one learns all the 'lessons' contained within it is hard to remember them, Tarot symbolism has them coded within (in some decks). They are like an index system or a patterned form ... like a 'kata', in martial arts , in a way; if I want to teach (which requires that I remember) the 200 or so moves and applications of 'storming the fortress' I wouldnt have a chance, but the Pattern or Kata of storming the fortress has about 30 moves, I can learn that easily, each move triggers memory of the numerous applications, so by remembering the pattern I can have memory access much more. Most people, after a bit of training have no problem remembering a dozen or so patterns. Now the pattern assists memory by working through the physical body and becoming lodged in the motor skills.

In tarot it can be worked the same way but via visual images and their relationships and meanings being 'stored in the unconscious' - a vast reservoir and calculator that spits out results into the conscious. Each card contains a wealth of accessible info that I could never store alone in my consciousness ... regardless of the usage.

This isnt as amazing and 'over the top' as some have claimed (including here when I have talked about it before) ...the process can be looked at in greater detail from a few angles;

Eg; Giulio Camillo's Theatre of Memory - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baO7p3yVYFY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory