Can Tarot really foretell the Future ?

Nikita_

Farzon said:
But there has to be a certain level of skill as well, as far as I know. Maybe better ask a real magician about this... But your argumentation implies that the reading will be perfect as long as the spiritual force is benevolent and that the reader himself has no influence on the reading. But then we all could just learn the right magic formula to invoke a spirit and would be able to do everything, know everything.

I know you don't like the answer, but this brings us straight back to the most probable source of mistakes... the human factor.

And I would also like to add, when someone approaches the world of tarot or exoteric studies in general, it means she/he already has a certain inclination, and therefore some talent...this stuff attracts a certain type of people like a magnet, more than any other field draws people who are like-minded to that degree...

Michael Sternbach

ravenest said:
Not only does Rabbi ravenest race around town saying 'I have all the answers, who has the questions?' - H e runs around answering questions addressed to others !

So sorry Michael .....

That's fine with me, Rabbi. I will PM you when I want you to answer another question for me.

But I wanted to answer this as well. As it is a problem ... or was a problem for me ... people wanting or assumed a type of reading that I didnt do -

Me: "First up, I am NOT psychic nor will I try to predict any events."

Are you intuitive? Then you may well be psychic unconsciously, at least to some degree... As intuition generally encompasses psychic components. But even excellent psychics can't always reliably predict future events due to the "Sternbach uncertainty relation" that I have hinted at above.

Nikita_

Michael Sternbach said:
That's fine with me, Rabbi. I will PM you when I want you to answer another question for me.

Are you intuitive? Then you may well be psychic unconsciously, at least to some degree... As intuition generally encompasses psychic components. But even excellent psychics can't always reliably predict future events due to the "Sternbach uncertainty relation" that I have hinted at above.

I have my own theory about psychics, which I have built over the years through experience. Somehow, they are very good at reading the minds and desires-and fears-of the people they have in front of them, and they see details of their lives even-much like the mentalist-but their track record at predicting the future, well...much, much worse than tarot, in my experience....

Michael Sternbach

ravenest said:
- how the cards can help ; one way is , even if one learns all the 'lessons' contained within it is hard to remember them, Tarot symbolism has them coded within (in some decks). They are like an index system or a patterned form ... like a 'kata', in martial arts , in a way; if I want to teach (which requires that I remember) the 200 or so moves and applications of 'storming the fortress' I wouldnt have a chance, but the Pattern or Kata of storming the fortress has about 30 moves, I can learn that easily, each move triggers memory of the numerous applications, so by remembering the pattern I can have memory access much more. Most people, after a bit of training have no problem remembering a dozen or so patterns. Now the pattern assists memory by working through the physical body and becoming lodged in the motor skills.

Nice analogy, Ravenest. Yes, the cards "store" knowledge in a compactified form not unlike a kata. (Btw, "storming the fortress" or Bassai-dai is also one of my favorites.)

In tarot it can be worked the same way but via visual images and their relationships and meanings being 'stored in the unconscious' - a vast reservoir and calculator that spits out results into the conscious. Each card contains a wealth of accessible info that I could never store alone in my consciousness ... regardless of the usage.

This isnt as amazing and 'over the top' as some have claimed (including here when I have talked about it before) ...the process can be looked at in greater detail from a few angles;

Eg; Giulio Camillo's Theatre of Memory - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baO7p3yVYFY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory

Again, I'm with you here. Theatres of Memory played an important role in Renaissance magic, and Tarot imagery can be applied likewise.

Michael Sternbach

ravenest said:
Now why would I do that? Noooo

... you shall be cast into burning lava for your "naiveness and stupidity" and I as the devil will tower over you you and gloat and stick you with my red hot pitchfork .... mwa ha ha HAAAR!

And then play your head as bagpipes

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8HRL7tBVOwk/UYYNptCRQDI/AAAAAAAAATI/oSGg4nabTfI/s1600/luther.jpg

- If I am going to be invoked as the baddie ... at least do a good job of it.

Wow, this really reminds me of Crowley's Book of the Law.

But don't you think you are a little too lenient with Nikita?

Michael Sternbach

Nikita_ said:
I have my own theory about psychics, which I have built over the years through experience. Somehow, they are very good at reading the minds and desires-and fears-of the people they have in front of them, and they see details of their lives even-much like the mentalist-but their track record at predicting the future, well...much, much worse than tarot, in my experience....

I agree, except that it's not necessary for every psychic to have the querent in front of you. Personally, I did hundreds of accurate readings long distance knowing not more than the querent's name, age and location (and sometimes not even all of this). And yes, I did train this skill a lot. However, I never tried to predict future events without using divinatory tools.

ravenest

Michael Sternbach said:
Wow, this really reminds me of Crowley's Book of the Law.

But don't you think you are a little too lenient with Nikita?

Perhaps. Do you have further suggestions ?

I'm all out - I cant even think of a Mullah Nasruddin story to sum the thread up

... give me 10 mins - I will make one up.

EyeAmEye

ravenest said:
Divination can be done like that as well, you dont need cards or any tools actually, they just assist ... I actually do a 'type of divination (that isnt right every time ) that I dont use the cards for at all (and it is actually more accurate if I dont use the cards, but that is an aside)

- how the cards can help ; one way is , even if one learns all the 'lessons' contained within it is hard to remember them, Tarot symbolism has them coded within (in some decks). They are like an index system or a patterned form ... like a 'kata', in martial arts , in a way; if I want to teach (which requires that I remember) the 200 or so moves and applications of 'storming the fortress' I wouldnt have a chance, but the Pattern or Kata of storming the fortress has about 30 moves, I can learn that easily, each move triggers memory of the numerous applications, so by remembering the pattern I can have memory access much more. Most people, after a bit of training have no problem remembering a dozen or so patterns. Now the pattern assists memory by working through the physical body and becoming lodged in the motor skills.

In tarot it can be worked the same way but via visual images and their relationships and meanings being 'stored in the unconscious' - a vast reservoir and calculator that spits out results into the conscious. Each card contains a wealth of accessible info that I could never store alone in my consciousness ... regardless of the usage.

This isnt as amazing and 'over the top' as some have claimed (including here when I have talked about it before) ...the process can be looked at in greater detail from a few angles;

Eg; Giulio Camillo's Theatre of Memory - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baO7p3yVYFY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_memory

Interesting. Hadn't really considered it from that angle. I figured if someone isn't capable of being objective with themselves, they wouldn't be objective when reading the cards either, regardless what cards were drawn.

This does put a spin on things...

ravenest

One day the people came to the Mullah greatly perplexed. "Oh Mulla, please help us understand, the people are confused. We pray to God and God gives us what we want - last month people prayed for rain ... and it rained; they prayed for the healthy birth of goats ... and many were born; and then they prayed that the trader ships arrived on time ... and they did.

But this month they prayed for rain ... and it didnt rain. They prayed to have lots of eggs, but the chickens didnt lay and then they prayed for the health of old Abdullah - and he died ! How can this be possible? What has gone wrong ... how can our prayers not have worked"

" Are you sure you prayed the right way?" asked the Mullah, "Besides, the world has not ended yet, Allah may well give you what you ask for soon ... where the prayers said properly, in the right form, with the right attitude? Where the mats exactly lined up with Mecca, are the Holy Men without fault? I have noticed the poor seem just as poor lately, have people been given alms? ... And all of you, deep within your hearts, have you all put Allah above all other thoughts all the time every day?"

The people became uneasy, mumbled and looked at the ground. ... " Well ... perhaps not ... not all of us."

"Well ... there you go then ! " said the MUllah and walked off .... safe and still alive.

EyeAmEye

ravenest said:
One day the people came to the Mullah greatly perplexed. "Oh Mulla, please help us understand, the people are confused. We pray to God and God gives us what we want - last month people prayed for rain ... and it rained; they prayed for the healthy birth of goats ... and many were born; and then they prayed that the trader ships arrived on time ... and they did.

But this month they prayed for rain ... and it didnt rain. They prayed to have lots of eggs, but the chickens didnt lay and then they prayed for the health of old Abdullah - and he died ! How can this be possible? What has gone wrong ... how can our prayers not have worked"

" Are you sure you prayed the right way?" asked the Mullah, "Besides, the world has not ended yet, Allah may well give you what you ask for soon ... where the prayers said properly, in the right form, with the right attitude? Where the mats exactly lined up with Mecca, are the Holy Men without fault? I have noticed the poor seem just as poor lately, have people been given alms? ... And all of you, deep within your hearts, have you all put Allah above all other thoughts all the time every day?"

The people became uneasy, mumbled and looked at the ground. ... " Well ... perhaps not ... not all of us."

"Well ... there you go then ! " said the MUllah and walked off .... safe and still alive.

So that's why tarot can't predict the future!

Can Tarot really foretell the Future ?

Nikita_

Michael Sternbach

Nikita_

Michael Sternbach

Michael Sternbach

Michael Sternbach

ravenest

EyeAmEye

ravenest

EyeAmEye