Reviews of tarot decks and books (split from Wow! never had.. slating)

So we now have pages about folks talking about how to talk to folks on the forum.

But what about honesty in reviews?

“I don’t like sixth grader art” does not constitute a review.

“I don’t like Computer Graphics art” does not constitute a review.

“I love spooky stuff” does not constitute a review.

What does constitute a good review?

If a work suffers from lack of compositional errors, or ignorance of subjects , and unintentional perspective errors, can these be introduced into a review?

Or is it that the art simply is not academic enough to be termed ‘good art’ by the community at large, as Picasso or Dali were perhaps viewed in their early years? (Do I really need to prove that my canvas is flat? Or must I prove that my canvas portrays depth correctly?)

Or is it that we cannot review any art that perhaps could be viewed as misanthropic or pessimistic?

What if the art is simply sophomoric?

Or is all Tarot art simply derivative, and therefore must be treated as unworthy of honest review? (Some have even dared to state that Michelangelo was derivative of Donatello (who sculpted a David decades before Michelangelo). Leonardo and Raphael BOTH were derivative of Giotto and Weyden…(or some would claim)).

What constituted ‘bad art’ in the fifties became ‘high art’ in the sixties with assimilated taste that created demand. What was once rejected became in demand, and then became an influence.

“[Abstract art is] a product of the untalented, sold by the unprincipled to the utterly bewildered.” -Al Capp

I happen to like abstract art…

"When I am finishing a picture, I hold some God-made object up to it – a rock, a flower, the branch of a tree or my hand – as a final test. If the painting stands up beside a thing man cannot make, the painting is authentic. If there’s a clash between the two, it’s bad art." -Marc Chagall

Now that IS profound!

"When one buys some of my artwork I hope it is because they will wish to learn from it and not because they think it will match their drapes!" -Christian Cardell Corbet, 1997

"Art is a step from what is obvious and well-known toward what is arcane and concealed." -Kahlil Gibran, "A Handful of Sand on the Shore"

Not every book, or every deck – is worth either the devastation of forest land or the recycled fiber required for publication.

What can be done to improve the honesty in the review process in our industry?

Myself? I'd really like to see a serious discussion. We already know how to address each other on the forum.

Umbrae said:

What can be done to improve the honesty in the review process in our industry?

Myself? I'd really like to see a serious discussion. We already know how to address each other on the forum.

Click to expand...

Umbrae, I thought you wrote a good post. A couple of thoughts and questions are rolling around in my mind (which perhaps indicates that there isn't much else there to slow it down... ) that I thought I'd bring up.

Who is going to be the audience? Are we talking about the reviews done here in the "Cards" section of AT? Are we talking about something that is distributed in a different way, such as a magazine or newsletter? If the latter, then is this the place where the discussion should happen, or should it be somewhere else (such as at the ATA)?

I did a quick search on "how to write a good review" and found some excellent websites. I don't know what process is followed here, but I would recommend having a template that includes points that "must" be addressed by the reviewer, points that "it would be nice to be addressed" etc. This gives a bit of structure and continuity to the reviews, making it easier for searchers to find what they're looking for. But obviously there needs to be originality in each review, so this template would only create a foundation.

I would also recommend that the reviews be critiqued/edited by 3 other people. This will help ensure that the language isn't too harsh, and also that concepts are communicated clearly. Each editor will see something different, helping to make it the best review possible. But more than 3 editors is going to be too much.

Wording - it is possible to be honest without being disrespectful. I think it's also important to take ownership of one's feelings as often as possible. "This isn't a very good deck" is different than "I think this isn't a very good deck." It highlights that this is an opinion, not a fact. Ditto for "criticism" vs. "constructive criticism".

Reviewers themselves should be people with a bit of credibility to their name. I like that when I read the reviews at AT, I recognize many names as long time members of the forum and practitioners of Tarot. Seeing someone's credentials is also a huge plus. =)

I write a lot of reports, and also edit reports written by others. These are some general tips that help me in my work. But I will finish here, the way I finish every report I edit - that these are only suggestions.

Umbrae said:

If a work suffers from lack of compositional errors, or ignorance of subjects , and unintentional perspective errors, can these be introduced into a review?

What can be done to improve the honesty in the review process in our industry?

Click to expand...

I think you have made a start, here, Umbrae.

If a *review* suffers from compositional/grammatical errors, ignorance of its subject matter, or contains a skewed perspective (logical or personal or reactive, unintentional (or otherwise) ), can it be taken seriously?

Do we now need to have to review our reviews and reviewers?

Milfoil's post began this splitoff thread by saying-

"When someone reviews a new work, whether it be a book, work of art, play or whatever there are a few things we naturally assume.

a) the reviewer is writing from a balanced and dispassionate viewpoint
b) they have actually experienced the product they are reviewing
c) they have a background understanding of the subject (in this case the artistic concept) to give credence to their review
d) they are respected in their field and amongst their peers."

(a) I never read a review (movie, book, restaurant, tarot deck) assuming that. One may, at best, hope for it, but one would be incautious to assume it.

Umbrae said, afterward-

"Other industries embrace honest reviews, movies, books, restaurants…art..."

Oh you really think so? There is such a thing as corruption in low places, and you will find the fine and gentle art of the amateur reviewer/critic to be a prolific, free-for-all breeding ground for it. I really have to doubt the new age industry has any exclusivity with problems in that area. Everyone embraces an honest review, just not everyone writes one.

One can only hope to tell in reading the review critically and alertly, oneself, if b) has been part of the review process. True, too many people don't and won't (either read critically, or have experienced the product or read what they are reviewing). But just how safe can we really expect to make the world for people who take everything at face value and believe the first thing they read, then stop reading?

(as Syrah asks "Who is going to be the audience?") Who is?

c) is always a shot in the dark, especially if you are new to a subject and informing oneself through reviews for the first time. It always helps to peruse as many points of view as are available, and very often risky, or at least potentially disappointing, to rely on just one. Consider the source, as they say.

d) I don't know what to say about that last one. If I am trying to get information on a book or tarot deck, I don't want to (and won't) spend half a day just researching the credentials of a reviewer- who has more than likely taken care to write them him-or-herself, anyway. It's way more profitable to spend that time looking for a second or third review of the book or movie, and just compare reviews.

In many cases, and in reality, the quality of a single review is going to be judged on the spot by it's tone, and the actual information it provides.

And I'm not sure if we are talking about reviews in general, or reviews embraced/used/referred by this forum, or what.

I don't see the suggestion of reviews being critiqued/edited by three other people tenable or realistic. It might be ideal, but it's just not going to be something that's going to be guaranteed. And one has to (okay- I have to) question it's ultimate efficacy as a check-and-balance. It really kinda depends on who you're asking, doesn't it? I don't see the endless cycle of checking people's credentials to give opinions ever ending..

Well, I hope I have not sounded too belligerant or certain or uncompromising. I don't mean to. I am certainly not certain of anything I am aware of.
But I don't have time to ask anyone, or anyone to ask to look this over before I post my thoughts. Just don't think of them as opinions, and maybe that'll be okay.

I do think there is an essential difference between a review (as in the lengthy ones posted here and in journals etc, which are not part of a thread) and discussion threads - where - while flaming and "I don't like it; it's fluffy" are perhaps unhelpful, a full blown pick-apart and discuss every detail post is not generally necessary or even appropriate.

And I do think it would be nice to be able to express negative views here politely and not be blasted for them. Not that I'm saying I am bursting to express some; I'm not - but on occasion when I have - or indeed have expressed positive ones in the "What a horrible deck" thread, way back when - I get rude PMs.

On the grammatical issue, though - if we are looking at posts here - I do get VERY irritated when people blast ungrammatical ones. Firstly - not everyone has been lucky enough to have as thorough an education as have some of our more learned posters; writing a post at all may well have been a huge achievement for them - and also, this is an international forum. I have seen people blasted for bad grammar - and sometimes even for being rude - when they were posting in English, a language they had at least taken the trouble to learn.

If someone here whose first language is not English writes a review in English, I would take it for what it is - a review - and read it as such - and take it seriously, yes, sphinxmoth ! How many of us could go and write one - or even a post - on a French, Greek or Japanese site in their language ? I am constantly impressed by the command that many people here from all over the world have of English.

Reviews of tarot decks and books (split from Wow! never had..slating)

I have read through each and every one of your threads here (no mean feat) and I must say I am deeply impressed with the level of sincerity which shines through, albeit sometimes, it seems to me, some comments are uttered through gritted teeth which does not, I hasten to add, lessen the passion or sincerity of the individual.

Let me declare a vested interest!!

When I created my deck I did not know AT existed and now I thank God for my ignorance. I shut myself away from the world for six months until my deck was completed. It never entered my mind that some creators posted their initial thoughts on public forums seeking feedback. These creators must have known, surely they must have known, that by so doing their work became public property and therefore subject to criticism both positive and negative - I thought this was common knowledge.

I know that there has been at least one negative response to the cards - it would appear that one purchaser thinks their 4 year old or 7 year old (cannot remember the child's age) could have done better. Well good on you you have a very talented youngster there and you should nurture the child's talent. Your comments worked to my advantage as I have sold my cards to 15 countries on 4 continents - I am hoping that the fifth continent, Africa, will eventually succumb and buy at least one set.

Whilst the cards are my creation I am not the illustrator so while this rather unkind comment did not affect me I was somewhat affronted on behalf of the artist who is an extremely talented young man. I would classify his art as Gothic and have no hesitation in telling you that his work is breathtakingly spectacular. All 78 cards were produced according to my specifications and therefore if there is a fault it is mine and mine alone and I accept that there are those who will not resonate with the artwork - such is life. Thank goodness there are plenty of people who like the deck and have purchased more then one set and to all of you I say a heartfelt thank you.

So please don't stifle debate but rather put yourself in the position of the artist, creator, writer when writing your comments and if you don't like the work feel free to say so but do it from a position of having at least some knowledge and insight of the subject.

Just my 2pence worth and not nearly as eloquently written as the previous contributors.

ar Leithligh

gregory said:

If someone here whose first language is not English writes a review in English, I would take it for what it is - a review - and read it as such - and take it seriously, yes, sphinxmoth ! How many of us could go and write one - or even a post - on a French, Greek or Japanese site in their language ? I am constantly impressed by the command that many people here from all over the world have of English.

Click to expand...

I agree with you completely, gregory. And I do the same thing. Why I, myself, am a monolingual dolt. So far be it from me to criticise the writing of someone who has more or less mastered a second language. And that has nothing to do with their reviewing capabilities. I for one find such writing endearing and frankly warms me to the writer.

I was not even thinking at all about writers/reviewers/whatevers whose first language is not English. I was only talking about letting common (and I do mean common) illiteracy slide by without remark.

I mean English-speakers, with access to computers (though it would seem not often to real dictionaries) who won't bother to spell-check (by which I mean they don't care to take the time), even though they are just as compelled to take the time to let the whole cyber-world see what their deep deep incisive and oh-so-interesting thoughts are, and who misuse the time of others in that way. Don't even get me started on apostrophes.

Sphinxmoth said:

I was not even thinking at all about writers/reviewers/whatevers whose first language is not English. I was only talking about letting common (and I do mean common) illiteracy slide by without remark.

I mean English-speakers, with access to computers (though it would seem not often to real dictionaries) who won't bother to spell-check (by which I mean they don't care to take the time), even though they are just as compelled to take the time to let the whole cyber-world see what their deep deep incisive and oh-so-interesting thoughts are, and who misuse the time of others in that way. Don't even get me started on apostrophes.

Click to expand...

But see - how can we TELL ????? Seriously - at times there are people here whose English is so good it isn't till they use some word COMPLETELY wrong and people get upset about something that it becomes apparent that English is not their first language. I well remember the guy who proudly told me (mercifully before ever posting) that he was a womaniser. He thought it meant that he idolises women.... OOPS !

(But I do agree about apostrophe's )

gregory said:

But see - how can we TELL ????? Seriously - at times there are people here whose English is so good it isn't till they use some word COMPLETELY wrong and people get upset about something that it becomes apparent that English is not their first language. I well remember the guy who proudly told me (mercifully before ever posting) that he was a womaniser. He thought it meant that he idolises women.... OOPS !

(But I do agree about apostrophe's )

Click to expand...

Well, it's true, you can't always tell. Which is why I would **never** blast anyone personally about such a thing, especially in public, but especially in private.
I merely make a general remark in passing about it here and now, and likely the opportunity will not arise again in these forums where I will care to make my *thoughts/not opinions* known on the subject. Just as well.

apostrophe's ... heheheheh- you a funny goil

(Your remark about getting hostile pm's sort of gobsmacked me. I can't believe people would do that- I guess I am lamentably naive).

Sphinxmoth said:

(Your remark about getting hostile pm's sort of gobsmacked me. I can't believe people would do that- I guess I am lamentably naive).

Click to expand...

I'm sure others have posted about that too ? It happens. It's life. In case anyone out to get me is watching - and it has only once bothered me ! so spare the effort !

I must be doing something wrong. Maybe I'm just a mindless piece of smiling fluff?

I never have gotten a hostile pm. Well...almost never.

This is off-topic (perhaps add that to my rap sheet...I'm improving!) but all I have ever gotten was one from a very new and quickly vanished member whose name I promptly forgot.

The pm said that the user name I chose was much too conceited and did I realize that I was basically calling myself G^d??

Well, I write poetry. And to write any kind of decent poetry, sometimes one must feel omniscient. I don't think that's odd, I think it's necessary for the creation process. (Don't take this out of context, or as a particularly serious claim...it's a personal description of the state of mind I am sometimes able to achieve when I write, that's all.)

I found the hostile pm extremely hilarious. I didn't answer it.