Changes to standard images...bother you much?

greatdane said:

If something doesn't follow Lenormand pretty darn closely, I see it as an oracle. It's like calling a zebra a horse, it's a zebra, not a horse, so just call it a zebra, not a horsey with stripes.

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Yes, agreed. I would be disappointed if I bought a deck labeled Lenormand, expected a Lenormand, and got a deck with different symbols on cards, thus making it not a Lenormand. I have no problems with similar decks that aren't so labeled and are not Lenormand though. It's like feeding me mint ice cream when I'm expecting black raspberry. I love them both but it's a pretty distasteful experience to expect one but get the other.

From my perspective, the recent Lenormand decks are not following tradition, because of one of two reasons: either the deck makers are so inexperienced in Lenormand that they do not know any better, or they have no respect for tradition. In either case you end up with decks that claim to be Lenormand but are not.

Ah yes Ryver and Izzydunne

Liked the ice cream reference, Ryver! And yes, it's not that I'm saying decks that don't follow what is commonly known as Lenormand are bad or wrong, I just don't see them as Lenormand.

And you have a good point, Izzydunne. I have been really surprised at how many Lenormand designers no little or nothing about Lenormand. But even taking that into account, how hard is it to look up online and see the symbols? They're fairly standard, a FOX, a BEAR, LILIES, CLOVER....if you want to make something else, make it, but please don't tell me I'm getting a pony and hand me a kitten. Love them both, but like Ryver said when you're expecting one thing and getting another.....

At least usually one can see the cards online before ordering so you know if they're not going to be what you consider traditional. I DID notice the Bieri was a bit off the beaten track, but not by much. It was just the SWORD for the WHIP/BROOM that was really off course, but I adjusted. But that is a rare instance. I just happen to like the other aspects of the deck and it's really different, love the black backgrounds. But I wouldn't make a habit of getting decks like this.

Izzydunne said:

From my perspective, the recent Lenormand decks are not following tradition, because of one of two reasons: either the deck makers are so inexperienced in Lenormand that they do not know any better, or they have no respect for tradition. In either case you end up with decks that claim to be Lenormand but are not.

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I totally agree with this, it seems a lot of deck designers are from the oracle and tarot world and are turning their hand to creating Lenormand decks, which is great, because most of them are experts in Tarot and much respected in the divination communities and it's good to have lots of Lenormand decks to chose from, some of the contemporary ones do look very pleasing to the eye, stunning infact.... But surely if your going to create a Lenormand deck, why on earth would you want to change it image wise, add your own meanings and titles, basically adding a slight oracle feel to the cards, i think if your an expert Lenormand reader, or at least have knowledge, you probably would have no problem reading these type of cards.... But for beginners?...we want to Learn Lenormand, don't we? not Tarot, not oracle..

That is why I have chosen to learn with Rana's new book, this lady is an expert in the field of Lenormand having been using the cards since she was a teen, I have her book on kindle and I'm waiting for the paperback version, she knows her stuff and that's good for me!

Izzydunne said:

From my perspective, the recent Lenormand decks are not following tradition, because of one of two reasons: either the deck makers are so inexperienced in Lenormand that they do not know any better, or they have no respect for tradition. In either case you end up with decks that claim to be Lenormand but are not.

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I'm curious which recent decks you mean and what your boundaries or criteria are to remain respectfully within the Lenormand tradition. I don't think I disagree with you at all but find your wording to be vague and I wonder if I might actually be a fan of decks that you would lump into the above criticism.

greatdane said:

They're fairly standard, a FOX, a BEAR, LILIES, CLOVER....if you want to make something else, make it, but please don't tell me I'm getting a pony and hand me a kitten.

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Ha! Love it.

greatdane said:

At least usually one can see the cards online before ordering so you know if they're not going to be what you consider traditional. I DID notice the Bieri was a bit off the beaten track, but not by much. It was just the SWORD for the WHIP/BROOM that was really off course, but I adjusted. But that is a rare instance. I just happen to like the other aspects of the deck and it's really different, love the black backgrounds. But I wouldn't make a habit of getting decks like this.

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Makes sense and nothing wrong with going in eyes-open, experimenting with varying degrees of tweaking especially since your Lenormand practice is firmly established. Sounds kind of fun and interesting. I've watched your comments about this deck. I'm nowhere near ready to jump on it but still am fascinated at your journey with it.

Seraphina said:

But for beginners?...we want to Learn Lenormand, don't we? not Tarot, not oracle..

That is why I have chosen to learn with Rana's new book, this lady is an expert in the field of Lenormand having been using the cards since she was a teen, I have her book on kindle and I'm waiting for the paperback version, she knows her stuff and that's good for me!

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I chose to get both Kindle and paperback with this particular book too, so excellent.

And yep, I have Tarot and other Oracle decks already. The point of my Lenormand efforts is to at least temporarily put that way of thinking and viewing aside and learn this system from scratch. It's not always easy so a deck that blurs away from Lenormand is going to really mess up my goals because I am not even sure I will see it happening. I think once I feel at least somewhat confident about my grasp of technique I could very much enjoy some of the decks that have extra cards. I have even already ordered a gorgeous "Lenoracle" deck that has extra cards with new symbols. I have yet to decide on when I will include the extra cards in my playing/practicing/readings, maybe right away for fun or maybe not for a while. To me, extra cards are not quite the same as changing the symbols of the existing system so I might embrace this deck in it's entirety sooner than I would a deck that changes any of the original 36. I don't even like to pull out my Enchanted deck because I don't want to deal with the crossing card that replaced the cross symbol yet. I found that only confused me in my efforts to learn the system.

Ryver said:

I chose to get both Kindle and paperback with this particular book too, so excellent.

And yep, I have Tarot and other Oracle decks already. The point of my Lenormand efforts is to at least temporarily put that way of thinking and viewing aside and learn this system from scratch. It's not always easy so a deck that blurs away from Lenormand is going to really mess up my goals because I am not even sure I will see it happening. I think once I feel at least somewhat confident about my grasp of technique I could very much enjoy some of the decks that have extra cards. I have even already ordered a gorgeous "Lenoracle" deck that has extra cards with new symbols. I have yet to decide on when I will include the extra cards in my playing/practicing/readings, maybe right away for fun or maybe not for a while. To me, extra cards are not quite the same as changing the symbols of the existing system so I might embrace this deck in it's entirety sooner than I would a deck that changes any of the original 36. I don't even like to pull out my Enchanted deck because I don't want to deal with the crossing card that replaced the cross symbol yet. I found that only confused me in my efforts to learn the system.

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Ryver, I agree with this too... I'm a complete beginner and I think it's so important that I learn Lenormand how it's traditionally supposed to be read, I need that basic foundation, once I'm more knowledgable and can read traditionally then it would be good and interesting to look at different decks and even read with them in the future, because by then my brain will know what each symbol/number/insert relates to in the traditional sense and I will not be affected by any visual clutter present on the cards or how a symbol is portrayed, I will be reading traditional Lenormand!
I think extra cards could be beneficial to some too, I must say there are some beautiful decks out there, Ciro's deck is stunning, brilliant card stock and gilded edges, infact I have that deck and hopefully one day when I'm experienced I will use it, it takes my breath away just looking at it lol... But I cannot learn with it, because it is not ultra traditional... For example, beautiful as it is, the rider in the gilded is on a carousel horse? The crossroads card is 2 staircases, It not much of a difference and I do get it, but because I'm a tarot reader and intuitive, I do not want my intuition interfering with my learning in the Lenormand in the first instance, and beautiful cards like Ciro's are for when I'm more experienced, like I said in earlier posts, I want my Lenormand straight up, no twists..

I agree with you on the enchanted, I cannot, as a newbie, get my head around that bridge!

I prefer my images to be standard and clear - not too much fuss or frills. I like to scan my readings and for it to be immediately obvious what card I'm looking at - especially with the GT. My favourite pattern is the Dondorf but I also love Melissa's Postmark for being really clear.

I've got a couple of beautiful decks which I just don't read with because the images aren't clear enough when I do a large spread.

Ryver said:

"I am curious what decks you mean."

Fair question, I will give examples, but first a trip in my time machine. Lets go back about 3 years or so. Go into any Tarot convention in the US, pull out a deck of Lenormand cards, and most people (teachers, readers, students) would not know what they are. Since then the Tarot community has jumped on the Lenormand bandwagon with both feet, writing books, teaching for money, and producing decks.

Now, please remember that the modern Tarot community has for years decried "fortune telling", and "neon gypsies." They have wanted to portray themselves as "spiritual advisers", or "tarot counselors". They wanted to be therapists without the required training, education, and expense of going to school, getting a degree, and a license. So this same Tarot community that wants to be therapists (and who disdain fortune tellers), have attempted to co-opt the most obvious fortune telling deck in the world.......The Lenormand. Ironic isn't it?

Now for some examples: and...........I am not picking on the people mentioned. Since I own no modern Lenormand decks, I have to rely on the few online images that the deck creators provide.

1.Burning Serpent Deck by Pace/Pollack

The Flaming Tree
The Dead Tree

The Owl and Mouse

Girl+Boy

Book of Life

These cards are misnamed or contain mixed imagery.

Osiris
Isis

Extra Cards for extra confusion.


2.Enchanted Lenormand by Matthews/Lee

Crossing
Broom

These cards are misnamed

Diviner. Extra card for extra confusion.


3.Under the Roses by Hurteau/Hill

Locket
Journal
Clock Tower
Grave

These cards are misnamed.


So, In closing, I hope you can understand my message from the above descriptions.

And please remember............The Divine often speaks through the language of Symbols.
When you change the symbol you change the message.

Izzydunne said:

Ryver said:

"I am curious what decks you mean."

Fair question, I will give examples, but first a trip in my time machine. Lets go back about 3 years or so. Go into any Tarot convention in the US, pull out a deck of Lenormand cards, and most people (teachers, readers, students) would not know what they are. Since then the Tarot community has jumped on the Lenormand bandwagon with both feet, writing books, teaching for money, and producing decks.

Now, please remember that the modern Tarot community has for years decried "fortune telling", and "neon gypsies." They have wanted to portray themselves as "spiritual advisers", or "tarot counselors". They wanted to be therapists without the required training, education, and expense of going to school, getting a degree, and a license. So this same Tarot community that wants to be therapists (and who disdain fortune tellers), have attempted to co-opt the most obvious fortune telling deck in the world.......The Lenormand. Ironic isn't it?

Now for some examples: and...........I am not picking on the people mentioned. Since I own no modern Lenormand decks, I have to rely on the few online images that the deck creators provide.

1.Burning Serpent Deck by Pace/Pollack

The Flaming Tree
The Dead Tree

The Owl and Mouse

Girl+Boy

Book of Life

These cards are misnamed or contain mixed imagery.

Osiris
Isis

Extra Cards for extra confusion.


2.Enchanted Lenormand by Matthews/Lee

Crossing
Broom

These cards are misnamed

Diviner. Extra card for extra confusion.


3.Under the Roses by Hurteau/Hill

Locket
Journal
Clock Tower
Grave

These cards are misnamed.


So, In closing, I hope you can understand my message from the above descriptions.

And please remember............The Divine often speaks through the language of Symbols.
When you change the symbol you change the message.

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Brilliant examples! I think your post pretty much says it all and I totally agree!
I think it's important for me as a beginner, who is about to start learning Lenormand, to steer clear of those kind of changes, it just doesn't help during the learning process...

I have about 60 Lenormand decks, yet I keep going back to the classics or to modern decks that use simple, straight-forward images that are close to the classics. I've seen plenty of cases where people get confused about what card is what, especially when quickly looking at a Square of 9 or a Grand Tableau. I want a Grand Tableau that speaks to me in the most direct fashion possible. There are a few decks that I like enough to make some allowances for, but I find myself reaching for one of the simpler decks or a classic in more cases than not.

I'll play with my more unusual or "creative" decks more when I'm doing a simple 3-card daily but I don't want to bother with them when I'm reading professionally.