So you'd like to know the history of tarot

conversus

Return to the Sources

Yygdrasilian said:
Where & how does Kabala or Waite explicitly advocate sexual intercourse as a means of redeeming The Lovers’ expulsion from paradise?


You might explore the doctrines of Tikkun Nefesh - repairing the soul , and Tikkun Olam - repairing the world especially as they relate to conjugal relations as understood in the teachings of the Lurianic School of the Kabbalah.

One can't count on the Boyz of the Golden Dawn for everything!

Cheers:

CED
 

Yygdrasilian

Make it a Double

conversus said:
You might explore the doctrines of Tikkun Nefesh - repairing the soul , and Tikkun Olam - repairing the world especially as they relate to conjugal relations as understood in the teachings of the Lurianic School of the Kabbalah.

One can't count on the Boyz of the Golden Dawn for everything!
Well, for one thing, I am not an initiate of the Golden Dawn; and, for another, the Lurianic conception of ruptured Sephira in need of human intervention (if I'm reading it right) seems an orthodoxy that hardly accounts for the whole of Kaballistic practice. Still, thank you for the recommended topics of research.

What I was getting at had more to do with Kapoore's implication that divine ecstacy was somehow exclusive to Christian mystics within the orthodox Catholic tradition - specifically (Psuedo-) Dionysius the Aeropagite & Nicholas Cusanus. I think a case could be made that both men were deeply influenced by the Kaballah - but that would precede Luria and his conception of the supernals' state of disrepair.

With regard to A.E.Waite, I gather from O'Neill's research that "...the false significance of the male-female duality occurred (mythically) in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve perceived their “nakedness.” Order is restored during lawful intercourse because the male/female duality is dissolved into Unity in the ecstasy of mutual orgasm." ( http://www.tarotpassages.com/old_moonstruck/oneill/6.htm ).
Does Waite himself explicitly state this idea of redemption?
 

kwaw

Scholem's one major criticism of Waites understanding of the doctrine and symbolism of kabbalah is where he notes (Trends in Jewish Mysticism):

"A first attempt to analyze this symbolism has been made by Waite in the chapter on "The Mystery of Sex" in his Secret Doctrine in Israel...But his analysis is built on the incorrect hypothesis that the Zoharic term ...means a sex mystery. As a matter of fact, this term simply signifies the whole of the ten Sefiroth, the mystical world of God, without any sexual or erotical connotation."[p.403]

In this point however, other hebrew scholars of Jewish kabbalah are of the opinion that Waite's view of the kabbalistic 'mystery of sex' is not quite so erroneous as Scholem makes out.
 

kapoore

Waite's Secret Doctrine the guidebook

Hi Yygdrasilian,
I, of course, agree with you that divine ecstasy is not exclusive to Christianity, but is a universal.

I was referring specificially to Waite's guidebook, The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, that I believe contains a code where specific words in the descriptive passages of the Trumps are the exact words that Dionysius used. I gave several examples of this. I think, though, that Waite did not agree with the Christian Platonic tradition that includes Cusa/Llull, etc. in the Lover card. Here he is more Kabbala based with physical sex as redemptive, or healing the "Fall." I came to this conclusion by noticing that he applies "word codes" in the Lover card that refer directly back to a section on sex in his book on Kabbalah. Generally, Waite follows Dionysius, and even to some extent in the Lover card--there are matching words. But Waite didn't like aceticism. Here is a quote from his biographer R. A. Gilbert, "And celibacy was quite definitely not a state to which Waite was called; nor was it one of which he really approved in others."

In other words, I was arguing that 90% of the time Waite follows Dionysius but not in the case of the Lovers card where the concept comes from the Kabbalah. And that is a Kabbalah that is Waite's version, not Gershom Sholem's interpretation. I know very little about the Kabbalah directly and have only read books that are interpretive or relate to the occult.

For further clarification, though, Waite does follow Dionysius in his concept of ecstasy. In fact, I have borrowed a phrase from the Christian Platonists and believe the Tarot can be called "a symmetry of ecstasies."
Not necessarily related to physical sex other than as a metaphor..
 

beanu

Greg Stanton said:
Actually, an excellent book has been written about the connection of Tarot and Christian Neo-Platonism, called "The Tarot: History, Symbolism and Divination" by Robert Place. This book, along with Huson's "Mystical Origins of the Tarot" really do lay to rest the old myths of Egyptian origin, and quite conclusively explain how the Major Arcana was derived from street parades called "Triumphs" -- within a Neo-Platonic framework.

Hi Greg,

This of course leads immediately to the question "What influenced the street parades?"
The Neo-Platonist framework is probably the answer. Where then does this lead us?

To the general discussion:-

I note that our modern knowledge tells us that Hermetics is largely fake, and derived from Platonism in about the 2nd century.
Yates makes a good argument that Hermetics was, at the time, considered more ancient, and hence more significant than Plato.
Let us remember that the GD is The HERMETIC Order of the Golden Dawn, so it is likely that any Secret Doctrine of theirs, or their members, is a Hermetic doctrine (and hence a neo-platonic doctrine).

Also note that Yates says that Ficino translated the Corpus Hermeticum in 1460 for Cosimo de Medici, making its knowledge contemporary with early Tarot, at least the the Majors.

Given that this is the Renaissance, when everything Old is New again, and that Italy seems to have been in the grip of Hermes fever, resulting in a Renaissance of Magic and Alchemy, I find it extraordinary that commentators can say that the Tarot was derived from street parades, and leave it at that.
While this may very well be true, it is only a small part of the picture. The facts must be interpreted in terms of their context, and the context is one of Hermetics and Neo-Platonism. Any Secret Doctrine behind the Majors is almost certainly Neo-Platonic or or Hermetic in origin.

Neo-Platonism is currently showing as an active topic on these fora, but I find little reference to Renaissance Hermetics or Alchemy in these discussion, and wonder why.
 

beanu

kwaw said:
Scholem's one major criticism of Waites understanding of the doctrine and symbolism of kabbalah is where he notes (Trends in Jewish Mysticism):

"A first attempt to analyze this symbolism has been made by Waite in the chapter on "The Mystery of Sex" in his Secret Doctrine in Israel...But his analysis is built on the incorrect hypothesis that the Zoharic term ...means a sex mystery. As a matter of fact, this term simply signifies the whole of the ten Sefiroth, the mystical world of God, without any sexual or erotical connotation."[p.403]

In this point however, other hebrew scholars of Jewish kabbalah are of the opinion that Waite's view of the kabbalistic 'mystery of sex' is not quite so erroneous as Scholem makes out.

Indeed, the kabbalah is based on the fourfold name of god, which references the Father (Yod), the Mother(Heh), and the Child (Vau).
The 2nd and 3rd spefira are the male and female principles, and the next 7 are all that derives from their union.
Therefore, a reference to the ten Sefiroth is a refeence to "the generative principle", in the specific form of male/female union (as opposed to asexual reproduction of lower life forms).
 

Bernice

So you'd like to know the history of tarot....

Originally posted by Mary: "So you'd like to know the history of tarot"
Well, I went to amazon.com and typed in the seachbox, "know the history of tarot". Ms Wagners 'history' came up top of the list.

ROFL......what a crock of rubbish!

If she had explained that the article was based on her - albeit, scanty and/or wishful thinking, (and intuition***) - researches, it might have been easier to accept as a speculative idea for some personal project. But to state it as an authorative source....well words fail me.... I wonder if Ms Wagner also belives that storks bring babies into the world?

***From the article: "From channeled information, comes the possibility that the Knights overtook a town during one of their battles in the Middle East and in the town was a sacred scroll that had survived the fire at the Alexandrian Library.
I suppose, strictly speaking, that the 'Tarot' didn't exist until it was named so, pretty late in the actual history of the cards. For a discussion of the very (very) early history of Cards, see this thread;

John Meadors' thread about the spread of 'cards' from China.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=22080&highlight=tsakli

Also, further similar links in the History: Forum Table of Contents:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=8356

Bee :)