Birds to Right of Key Card

Miss Divine

Hahaha...

rif

Miss Divine said:
ship+horseman+woman+clouds+crossroads.

Would it be possible that the horseman still indicates her return, but because of the clouds and crossroads on the right indicating it wouldn't amount to anything in the end?

Seems reasonable to me. Ultimately she wouldn't want to commit, to keep her options open.

Miss Divine

rif said:
Seems reasonable to me. Ultimately she wouldn't want to commit, to keep her options open.

Exactly! Now the question remains:

Does the horseman indicate a return or not even when it's on the left?

rif

Miss Divine said:
Does the horseman indicate a return or not even when it's on the left?

It certainly could.

In your last example, you suggested these cards:
ship+horseman+woman+clouds+crossroads.

Will Angie come back to him?

Since we have to focus this reading by specifically relating it to the question -- something I still work on myself -- we can talk about the Horseman as her return. The Clouds then suggest confusion, and the Crossroads are the ultimate parting of ways; a refusal to commit on her part.

The Horseman is bringing something into the picture. A good way to think about it is that the Horseman is bringing the Woman. This fits with the question; we're asking if she will return. It also fits with the Lenormand principles: the card on the left is the subject and the right is the modifier. (That's how I think about it.) So the Horseman brings something, and in this case, he brings the Woman.

Admittedly, I often think of the intangibles that the Horseman brings: news and information. And while that is possible, it is getting away from the question, which was about Angie's return. NOT if he'd hear about her return.

That's my two cents and then some.

olivia1

IheartTarot said:
I agree the example on p200 is a bit confusing. The way I explain it to myself is that the Storks+Crossroad are current influences/opportunities relating to the question, possibly confirming the present situation (looking for a better job) while Sun+Letter relates to an actual future outcome.

Thanks

I'm just glad that I'm not the only one who had to think about it a bit...

When asking a Yes/No type question, I believe the cards on the right/future should be positive or negative in nature to give you a clear answer. Some positive cards are Key, Bouquet, Sun, Anchor, Stars, Storks.

agreed

Some negative cards are Coffin, Mountain, Snake, Cross, Mice, Clouds. The Book could indicate something unknown/unexpected (and not for the querent to know at this time). The Scythe could also indicate something sudden and unexpected. I wouldn't rely on Birds to mean someone will call. If that is the nature of the question, I would see Birds immediately next to the key card on the left/past as confirmation of the question/situation.

Sorry if this doesn't help you. Thank you for asking the question as I am also learning and it is good to see what other people think.

oh you do help. the thing that just got me to ask this question is that I noticed in my past readings that a communication card (I view Birds, Letter, Horseman as communication cards) would fall in the Past position.

The Future would look ok. I'd see a Clover. Or I'd see Ship. You get the idea: no other type of "communication" cards but cards look decent. Well what happens? Sometimes the person calls. Sometimes they wouldn't. Its a crap shot.

Or I could get something similar (a communication card in the Past) and some cards that I would think looks rather positive. Does the person call? No.

Here is an example of a real reading I recorded:

I wanted to know if my partner's friend will reply to a message I wrote him within a certain time frame:

coffin+cross+rider+ MAN(CC)+stork+flowers+key

In short, I read that as "yes." Especially since in the book, Key was taken to be a definite yes. And I thought though the "past" looked bleak that "future" looked good. Well, the person still has not responded. If they plan to, they definitely did *not* respond within the given time frame.

So either I read that wrong (obviously) or the cards really did indicate that he would call but didn't. People have free will so maybe he changed his mind. I dont know but the bottom line is that he hasn't contacted me.

I am a an avid note taker and I do many readings. I have loads of examples in my notebook where the cards seemed to indicate someone will contact but they dont. Then I have situations where the cards seem to say that the person likely wont be getting in touch (no communication cards at all) "but don't worry! they think fondly of you," and then they do.

I guess I either have to tweak the system to make it work better for me. Or I'm missing something and there are other communication cards and I just need to figure them out (like Rif suggested). Or maybe Lenormand simply doesnt work well with time frames (many of my communication readings deal with time frames) and maybe its adding the time frames that threw my reading (above) off. For all I know, he might try to respond to me 6 months from now. That would make it way after the time frame so that would still mean that my interpretation was wrong, but it is still response nonetheless. I don't know. Time will tell, I suppose.

halil

deleted

olivia1

halil said:
Have you tried asking Sylvie on her "no layout method circle" thread? She seems to check it for questions occasionally.

I had hoped to learn from my peers' experiences and ask Sylvie only as a last resort. But it looks like I might just have to eventually ask. Im going to just keep doing what I am doing and see if I can figure it out on my own. However, if after awhile if I still cant figure it out then I might ask. I think in time I'll figure it out, though...I'm already learning a lot just by hearing other people's ideas.

PS.
Does anyone know how long the "present" extends to? I think that is part of my problem. Due to the results I have been getting (where communication cards would show up in "past/present" but no "comm" cards are in the future, only to have the person contact) I originally had the idea that the "present" doesn't just mean in the "hear and now" but could also extend a few days.

Maybe I messed myself up by accepting that idea based on a few readings. Maybe I should have to stopped it much sooner rather than going along with it. Ok, so it doesnt solve why my example reading went wrong but it'll sure explain a lot of other issues that I have been having. In the book, Sylvie did say that timing is tricky because humans invented the concept of time.

Phoenix Rising

Miss Divine said:
Thanks Rif, I'd like to see what others have to say about this too.

I also wonder, for instance let's look at the Angie and Michael example. What if these cards showed up:

ship+horseman+woman+clouds+crossroads.

Would it be possible that the horseman still indicates her return, but because of the clouds and crossroads on the right indicating it wouldn't amount to anything in the end?

This thread has really got me thinking...

Hi Miss Divine,

The horseman is in the past, so it does not indicate something in the future, it would have to be saying that it has already occurred, so she left (ship) but is "thinking" of returning (horseman) the clouds in the near future or intention is her uncertainty (clouds) of whether to settle down (anchor) it will take time when she has clarity.

Hope this makes sense? It is great to have all these questions.

Phoenix

IheartTarot

olivia1 said:
I had hoped to learn from my peers' experiences and ask Sylvie only as a last resort.

One (selfish) reason I would like you to ask Sylvie is because she is busy writing e-workbooks and it will be good for her to see where we get confused most so that she can include examples like these.

Miss Divine

Phoenix Rising said:
Hi Miss Divine,

The horseman is in the past, so it does not indicate something in the future, it would have to be saying that it has already occurred, so she left (ship) but is "thinking" of returning (horseman) the clouds in the near future or intention is her uncertainty (clouds) of whether to settle down (anchor) it will take time when she has clarity.

Hope this makes sense? It is great to have all these questions.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Great to see you in this thread.

Yes it makes sense. So the left card right beside the keycard shows what they're thinking?

I did a reading for somebody recently. The question was ''will X contact Y''?

These are the cards I got:
mountain+horseman+man+crossroads+ring+bouquet

This is how I interpreted these cards:
The mountain was telling me there was silence, a long silence so a distance between the two. The horseman was telling me he'd contact her again.
I agree with you here about the indecision, and that it's his choice to make.
I don't think they will end up having a relationship (don't ask me why, it's just a feeling I got while doing the reading. But I do think there will be some kind of reunion, and a positive one.

The cards on the right don't show any form of communication. But the outcome cards are positive ones. Now I wonder if my interpretation is all wrong as answer to the question.

Also, what if the cards on the right were all negative, and the horseman was still on the left right beside the keycard, does that still mean the charged keycard is thinking about it anyway?

You said you loved all these question.

Well thank goodness for that cuz we all have plenty LOL.

Thanks