Marseilles decks: Translating French card titles?

Originally posted by mj07 on a thread started by mj07 on the Your Readings board:
I got my Fournier on Monday and have spent a few days just kind of looking the cards over, getting to know them a bit. On my lunch break today I decided it was time to just jump in, so I did a small daily 4-card spread on how various areas of my life are doing today (sorry, I'm not using the French names yet...):

Click to expand...

MJ ... You don't need to apologize about not using French card names. Many people (such as yours truly who, by the way, is comfortable reading and speaking French) prefer and choose to use English versions of those French names. It's not a question of mastery versus non-mastery of French, nor a question of experience with the TdM deck.

In my humble view, using French titles is like an Anglophone pronouncing the French city Paris as "Paree" when he speaks in English. But that's just my personal take.

To me, LE BATELEUR is The Magician, LE FOU is The Fool, etc.

I translate court card names into English in the case of King, Queen and Knight. VALET is a bit harder to decide, for me. For that one, I'm drawn to calling him Valet because he's so distinct in the TdM, although Page or Knave is probably a good translation. (I guess you could make the same argument for the Bateleur, heehee.)

For suits, COUPES is Cups, DENIER or DENIERS is Coins, ÉPÉES (or its historo-stylistic variants) is Swords. BATONS is the one I stumble on. Batons, for me, in English, really makes me think of batons like a cheerleader uses. Yet, I still go for Batons in English. It would be probably most accurate to translate Batons as Rods or Clubs (or Sticks).

Since the French spellings of suit names, court card names, and major arcana titles vary somewhat depending on which version of the Tarot de Marseille you use: Conver versus Marteau/Grimaud/Fournier versus Jodo-Camoin versus Hadar, using English titles avoids having to keep the French names straight between different decks.

However, do as you think best. À chacun son goût. To each, his own.

I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on this.

Chat later.

I have to admit that when I first started with my TdM I was always thinking of the English equivalent(s) but as time has gone on I am beginning to call some of the cards by their french names without even thinking about it.

I tend to think that we mostly know what each other is talking about and anyone who spends much time with the TdM will probably do the same and the french just 'creeps in'.

I know though that some cards e.g. La Maison-Dieu and Le Pape do have different meanings in English than their counterparts, so I suppose we should all try to get it right really!

J

Jewel-ry said:

I know though that some cards e.g. La Maison-Dieu and Le Pape do have different meanings in English than their counterparts, so I suppose we should all try to get it right really!

J

Click to expand...

Le Pape is The Pope (He's a worldwide figure anyway.) La Maison-Dieu is probably one you could leave untranslated if you wish, but the English equivalent The Tower is perfectly serviceable, as far as my view goes.

You can "get it right" even if you use English translations throughout all the cards. However, ultimately, it's a question of personal view. La Maison-Dieu is one of the few that could be left untranslated in English, if it's a real concern.

I also use the English titles frequently. However, I never translate the Bateleur because one cannot translate this word into English. Using the word Magician is a bad translation.

There is nothing wrong with using the word Magician in RWS or Thoth decks, because they DO depict a Magician.

A Bateleur was a kind of a roving minstrel. He was a lot more than that, but I'm not going to give a history lesson now. Major Tom translated him as the "Conjurer" which I found a lot better than "Magician". Some people translate it as "Juggler". It's not correct either.

So I call him a Bateleur. Just like I call a "pièce de résistance" a "pièce de résistance" and an "hors d'oeuvre" an "hors d'oeuvre". Or "Schadenfreude" as "Schadenfreude". Some words are untranslatable.

Valet, I normally also call a Valet. I think it's quite understandable as well, even in English (or am I wrong?) Otherwise, Page is quite okay to me. I think that is the correct translation.

Batons does sound odd in English. I agree with Rusty Neon. I use Batons, because it's closer to the French word. But if I had to choose another English word, I would prefer Clubs to Rods.

However, translating Deniers into Pentacles would be ridiculous. They are round - and they do not have anything to do with Pentacles.

Coins would be the closest... So I use the word Coins in English.

Maison-Dieu, I prefer to use the expression "Tower of God" than House of God.

And I like to say "Le Mat" for the Fool. The French don't know what it means either!!! unless they use the Tarot, so we're equal there. . But the word Fool doesn't bother me.

It's true. That's interesting about the Fool card. Sometimes Le Mat is used in decks, other times, Le Fou is used.

He is also called "Le Fol".

The etymology of the word "Fol" is "feu", which means fire.

Rusty Neon said:

Le Pape is The Pope (He's a worldwide figure anyway

Click to expand...

Yes, you are right of course! I don't know what I was thinking of.

J

Oh yes, and the Papess is a Papess. That is a proper English word.

You can find plenty of web-sites which speak of the Papess Joan (although she is also referred to sometimes as the Pope Joan.)

For Bateleur, the English word Mountebank is sometimes used by English-language tarot writers to fit the pictorial imagery of the Marseilles card.

http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2004/04/03.html

But that word is so rare in today's English, that most people will go "Huh? what's that?", so you may as well say Magician or keep it untranslated, depending on your view.

Whenever I hear the French word "fou" or "fol" I still think of translating it as "crazy" or as a noun as "madman" ...I looked it up and that is still the definition in French-English....somehow, for me, this carries more the idea of a trickster, a person who lives between boundaries, travels between worlds...

The English world "fool" carries more of a meaning to me of an "idiot" or innocuously ignorant person....So for me, the French word is more delicious...

Just finished reading the links on the Robert Place thread that fm posted....He had some interesting discussions of origins of some of these words ...Both interviews were wonderful...one with Umbrae and the other Llewelyn Books...:

http://www.tarotgarden.com/library/articles/placeinterview.html

http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/359

I found both interviews among the best reading/interpretation of historical elements of Tarot...thought it might be appropriate to link here since Place gets into trump card names and origins...

Also, he refers to O'Neill's work which I save as a favorite and read from time to time...on same topic...

http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/

One thing I noticed when I looked at my new C-J deck was that they used baton] for all but Reyne de Baston...why the inconsistency? I know that the removable "s" has been replaced by the accent (circonflexe/circumflex?) but was curious..

terri