Chiron Return

firecatpickles

I would like to pick your brain about Chiron Returns.

A daily tarot draw prompted me to look further into my chart. (More on this reading can be found here.)

Knight of Cups

Now it's my turn not be be sure about a court card! I got Knight of Cups, which I associate with Pisces. There is nothing in the current astro weather chart for this sign so I'm on my own.

This prompted me to look at my astrological chart. Transiting Chiron is now in Pisces and my natal Chiron is in Aries. Chiron is the Wounded Healer (which incidentally corresponds to 5 of Pentacles from the reading).

This phenomenon reflects what is going on in my life right now as far as a permanent career change and feeling like I am coming into my own, at last. And part of the self-healing process I have undergone the last few years centered on doing with my life what I felt was my calling, and not to allow other people in my like to determine that path for me.

Chiron returns is something that happens only once in a lifetime. I found an interesting article, Chiron Return: A Most Meaningful Rite of Passage. What are your thoughts?

This personal transit begins about this time next year, April 22, 2017, when natal Chiron and transiting Chiron come within 10 degrees of one another. April 18, 2018, transiting Chiron returns to the natal House of Chiron (Aries). And the two are exact on April 21, 2020, a few months before my 50th birthday.
 

MandMaud

You have piqued my interest, but I have a lot to do so probably won't get back on this for a couple of days. But wanted you to know your question isn't lost in the ether. :)

I hadn't thought about Chiron returns, and as I turn 49 this summer it's relevant to me soon too. Don't know where to do a Chiron return chart, but I have now printed my solar returns for 2016/17 and 2017/18 from Astrodienst which will be fairly close. Not sure if Chiron will have quite made it to the cusp of Aries by the date of my return, it's close, and my natal Chiron is less than half a degree from the cusp :eek: - in my 2nd house which has been in my mind a lot this past few months. Hm. I have a feeling I'll be thanking you for starting me on this course of finding-out! The whole Fisher King thing is pretty big in my life already.

See you in a while. :livelong:
 

firecatpickles

I used Astrodienst and played around with the dates for "natal chart and transits" charts until I found the exact degrees in the pdf files I downloaded.

I am looking forward to hearing from you!
 

Minderwiz

There are two considerations to return charts. The first is:

Is this planet or body astrologically significant.

The second is:

If it is significant; Is the period of its return significant in terms of a life.

The two are quite distinct questions. Sun, Mercury and Venus are all significant bodies, generally most astrologers would treat all of these three as more significant than Chiron. However their return periods are approximately one year. Very few Astrologers bother with the Mercury or Venus returns, but a significant number do use the Solar Return and cast regular return charts.

At a shorter interval, charts relating to Lunar returns, either to it's natal position or it's position relative to the Sun, are also widely used.

Very few Astrologers use the Mars Return (approximately two years) but the Jupiter and Saturn returns are widely used, especially the latter.

The Chiron return fits nicely between the Saturn Return (becoming an independent self reliant person) and the Uranus Return (approximately end of life).

So the answer to question two is that it is very likely to be a significant period and quite a few Astrologers would affirm that Chiron is significant - though not as significant as the classic seven or the modern ten.

Personally, I don't see Chiron as significant astrologically, which negates question one, and by definition question two. I do recognise that many will take Chiron as significant, so it's up to you to decide what Chiron means, and how you interpret a return. What is special about age 50 that makes this important? And how does the interpretation of Chiron, shed light on that age.

If we take the Psychological interpreation of Chiron as the wounded healer then what is significant in those terms about 50? One possibility is that it marks the age at which we are reconciled to ourselves - the self healing has taken place. However Astrology never based interpretations on Greek Mythology until the last century - indeed the Greek speaking Astrologers who invented it, and who would therefore be the most likely to base their interpretations on mythology, steadfastly did not do so. Which is why I'm not convinced about Chiron. There are other reasons as well but this isn't the place to go into them.

So if you want to go down the modern psychological route, then try looking at the ways in which you have healed your own psychological issues and are now at peace with yourself. Just to add some evidence against my own argument for balance, I returned to Astrology, shortly after my fiftieth birthday (actually a couple of years after) but that did go along way to reconciling mself to my former existence.
 

Astraea

I strongly recommend Barbara Hand Clow's book, Chiron: the Rainbow Bridge between the Inner and Outer Planets. It is still in print and available at Amazon for about $16 US. She includes chapters on natal Chiron, Chiron transits and Chiron returns, interspersed with astrological information related to cycles, precessional ages, generational influences, and so on.

Parenthetically, as a traditional astrologer I do not assign rulership of any sign to Chiron or the outer planets, but I note their positions and find that they yield useful information in many situations. To me, Chiron seems analogous to an ambassador shuttling between inner- and outer-planetary "missions": in that context, Clow's book is excellent.
 

dadsnook2000

Returns for planet combinations

While Solar and Lunar Returns are often used by astrologers, but not always well-used, there is great value in using the transiting Moon to a natal body --- Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars.
** t/Moon to n/Sun Return; depicts the changes that intrude on one's intended life direction and can show how to rebalance one's life.
** t/Moon to n/Mercury; can be applied to public communication. I used this charting format to follow and explain the difficult roll-out of Obama's health care system in the fall of 2011. Mercury represented the news releases, the coding and the coordination of the many industry volunteers who helped to straighten out the computer breakdowns so that people could sign up for health care. Moon represented the public, the emotional response by the opposition party.
** t/Moon to n/Venus Returns can be applied to love relationships, partnerships, marketing. Moon, of course, represents change, reactions, variables. While Venus can relate to a products attractiveness, value, satisfaction, fashion, etc. One can be flexible with these mixes of planets.
** t/Moon to n/Mars works best with anger issue, attacks, tragedy and crime applications. But it might also be used for creativity projects.

In a few cases I have used t/Moon to n/Saturn and to n/Pluto charting. The Scotish killer Bradey who abducted girls and took them out to the moors to rape, kill and murder them was one recent case. With Saturn, I charted his arrest and court case. With Pluto I charted his conviction and transfer to a life in jail. Saturn was useful as a limitation symbol (arrest) and Pluto was useful as a transformative and irrevocable situation linked to never again see freedom.

However, when one use charts in these ways, the interpretive nuanceing has to be rigidly adhered to. You can't casually apply typical natal interpretations.
 

MandMaud

OK... :D

I'm putting all my multiple strands of thought into one post, and I hope people don't mind, but it works better for me. Tried to break it up a bit.
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I found these! https://cafeastrology.com/ephemerisasteroid2018.html = Asteroid Ephemeris 2018, with lots of other ephemerides in the sidebar, both asteroid and non-asteroid (though none further ahead than 2018).

My natal Chiron is in Pisces 29° 29' 1", retrograde. It will be at 29° 29' 0" on 30th March 2018, at noon Eastern time, and 29° 29' 3" at noon the next day, so I guessed 8pm, converted to GMT and used Astrodienst to tweak the date and time as you did, firecatpickles, until it landed on 29° 29' 1" precisely. NOT retrograde. :)

As long as Astrodienst is right (I tend to think that's more likely than CaféAstrology), my Chiron return will fall on Sunday 8th April 2018, 3:07am. That's more than a week later than the ephemeris said which puzzles me. But anyway, I'll be 51¾ very nearly (and it's the day before my ex's birthday (grrr), which will help it stick in the memory).

I'm sure the effect will last months if not years either side, though. As much as ten years either side or even more? (Given that a solar return "fades in" and "fades out" three months either side of its point in time, according to what I've read at least.)
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Then the next step. Astrodienst allows a synastry report with an event, so I did that. Give me technology, see me bend it to my will. ;)

Someone tell me if this patching-it-together method is ok! More importantly, tell me if it's NOT ok.

But there I stop, as it will be a lot of palaver to read it - I haven't any experience with reading any kind of return chart, though I have read a few step-by-step articles.

I do (based on "how to read a solar return" how-to's) know enough to notice the Ascendant - in Capricorn (my natal Asc is Saggy) - so would that mean the "wisdom" I've learnt from what I've gone through so far (which is quite a bit actually) will feed into my career and that kind of thing, in later life? If so I'm glad, as that's my intention currently. I'm researching and taking steps towards earning some money (if not exactly a living) through my healing and spirituality, and those have developed through losing my health and having a crap marriage that wasn't far from a prison-type situation. Mars, Moon and Jupiter (which is conjunct my natal Sun) are all close to the return Asc - the Moon conjunct within less than a degree; I think this supports the business/spiritual thing I just said, especially if it also broadens my social network, but I'm guessing - am I making sense?

The thing that struck me even before looking at the Ascendant was how unbalanced my ChR* chart is. Houses 4-9 are completely empty except for the True Node in Leo - just over a degree from my natal Jupiter and 5° from natal Sun. In psychological astrology, this is a bowl chart (http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/Bowl.htm). He says, talking about psychology of course:
The Bowl chart occurs when the planets occupy half of the horoscope wheel. People with a Bowl shaped chart can be just as stubborn as those with a Bundle. The difference is that while Bundle people seem self-contained in their own little world, Bowl folks are very aware of others and frequently try to compel recognition. In other words, when two thirds of the wheel is empty, you don’t care. When one half is empty, it seems to give painful recognition that something is missing, that there is an area of existence from which they are excluded, and the entire life may be spent trying to fill that void. This is why those with Bowl horoscopes frequently seem to be on a mission. And they do have a tendency to get involved in causes.
* Is that even a thing, that abbreviation? :laugh:

Now, I do know that extrapolating from psychological descriptions to apply them to is risky. But it's fun. ;) I'm thinking, my stubbornness is already developing. Before my thirties I was all about accommodating. And giving up if anything was any kind of struggle, however much it mattered.

The other thing I've noticed so far is that no planets are in Air signs in the return chart; seven, plus the Ascendant, are in Cardinal signs, and all of those fire and earth. :eek: There's only Neptune and Chiron itself in mutable signs, which kind of goes with the stubbornness in Bob Marks' description above.

I don't know how to interpret houses in a return chart.

And that's about as far as I can go without doing some real study - which I mustn't, tempting as it is, because my brain-working-well hours need to be spent on this earning-money, building-business thing that I was mentioning! :D However I am interested whether I'm thinking straight, in any of this. :)
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And finally! Relating my thoughts to what you were actually asking, OP! :)

This phenomenon reflects what is going on in my life right now as far as a permanent career change and feeling like I am coming into my own, at last. And part of the self-healing process I have undergone the last few years centered on doing with my life what I felt was my calling, and not to allow other people in my like to determine that path for me.

Me too, most definitely. Midlife crisis? ;) What with this and then the Saturn return, hm. Ten years ago (ten years this coming Wednesday, in fact!) I lost my health; wasn't driving for 7½ years, written off as no chance of ever earning a living again. Certainly I won't do the 9-to-5 again (thank goodness) but I am looking at ways of earning at least something, and getting excited about things that will boost my own health while bringing help and value to other people's lives - and potentially earning quite well, if it all goes right and I don't goof and no aeroplanes land on my house or runaway moose trample me, or anything like that. (You laugh, but you wouldn't believe the number of Universe-dumping-on-me-out-of-the-blue events I've weathered in recent years!)

The big change in my thinking is seeing "business" as my life, instead of dividing everything including my address book into business and leisure. I recognised, and it felt like a sudden revelation, that all my life I've "planned" (somehow I was planning when I thought I was just reading leaflets out of general interest) to start a small business, become self-employed - for example. Suddenly I realised that my lifelong problem with building a social circle* will be solved if I combine business with leisure, ie work with people whose company I love; and I'll find that easier, I relate better to people if we're meeting with a defined common purpose rather than just for a chat or a pizza or to shop for clothes. I'm better addressing a meeting or a class than managing smalltalk, and far more interested in it.

* First shyness, then overwork that left me no spare minutes to stay in touch, then illness isolated me thoroughly, yet I felt the need throughout to be among people, my "tribe".

I'm really interested that my Chiron Return Ascendant is in Capricorn, since I'm moving gradually but so definitely towards business/career in all my conscious thinking and (finally! this year) actinos. After having been brought up to believe that if it was profitable it was unworthy; uselessness was more virtuous than gain; ambition = greed = despicable. !!!

I have also learnt to ask for help. That is one of the great blessings of long-term poor health. We learn to state need without apology, and to delegate, and we learn our limits. I am privileged, not many people master this, hardly anyone until age makes them frail.

And I've learnt that I'm a healer and empath - and explored these and become competent, and confident, exercising these abilities for the benefit of myself and others. This got me interested in the shamanic thing which again is the wounded-healer thing.

What really makes me wonder is what about the second Chiron Return? I know not many people have one, but enough do. Last month I went to my aunt's funeral, and she was 106 so it makes you think. I didn't know her well enough to know if her approach to life changed around the century - but I do know she stopped baby-sitting, driving, and travelling overseas in her late 90s. (Wow. :)) Maybe the second return is more about finishing the task of sharing one's hard-won wisdom, and receiving the acknowledgement and respect earnt in the sharing stage?

One way and another, I really hope that the tougher stage of life is over now, in my own case.
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(And on that original tarot reading, firecatpickles - intriguing to see the 5 of Pents standing for the wounded healer. I'd always say the Hermit for that concept, but now you say it, 5P is utterly valid for it. An extra angle on the 5P for me, great - thanks!)
 

firecatpickles

Thank you all for the replies!

I haven't forgotten nor am I ignoring all these responses. I will get to y'all's feedback eventually I promise...


Starting here:

If we take the Psychological interpreation of Chiron as the wounded healer then what is significant in those terms about 50? One possibility is that it marks the age at which we are reconciled to ourselves - the self healing has taken place.
There is a bit of "proof is in the pudding" for me with Chiron. In 2011 I had a major (and sudden) life change. When I checked my chart, Chiron had been at an exact square with Mars on the very day the proverbial $#!+ hit the fan. It turned out to be a necessary shift in my life and I am grateful it happened. Chiron grabbed my attention after that point.

So if you want to go down the modern psychological route, then try looking at the ways in which you have healed your own psychological issues and are now at peace with yourself. Just to add some evidence against my own argument for balance, I returned to Astrology, shortly after my fiftieth birthday (actually a couple of years after) but that did go along way to reconciling mself to my former existence.

I was just thinking about how the past does not define me (anymore). This is the real healing that has taken place or is in the process of it. It's like turning weakness into strength. Or is it just a change in perspective as I get older? Sort of like muscle memory, when an older person appears stronger because they've gotten used to lifting a tremendous amount of weight?

Also, I am drawn to the term "wounded healer" because this is exactly how I feel. With all the issues I've had to deal with and the scars, still carrying on and do what I love to do.
 

Barleywine

Here's something that might interest you. I haven't read the article to see how sound its astrological fundamentals are, but it also refers to a few other Chiron books beside Clow's, as well as Zane Stein's website. I don't use Chiron or any other asteroids in my own work, which has become decidedly more traditional in the last few years.

http://www.evolvingdoor.ca/miscarticles/chiron-in-pisces.htm
 

firecatpickles

I strongly recommend Barbara Hand Clow's book, Chiron: the Rainbow Bridge between the Inner and Outer Planets. It is still in print and available at Amazon for about $16 US. She includes chapters on natal Chiron, Chiron transits and Chiron returns, interspersed with astrological information related to cycles, precessional ages, generational influences, and so on.

Parenthetically, as a traditional astrologer I do not assign rulership of any sign to Chiron or the outer planets, but I note their positions and find that they yield useful information in many situations. To me, Chiron seems analogous to an ambassador shuttling between inner- and outer-planetary "missions": in that context, Clow's book is excellent.

This is an interesting concept. I wonder if one could only follow Chiron aspects and the returns of the other planets instead of all the aspects in a chart.

There is so much to look at in astrology that I only go to it occasionally. If I were to focus on one part of it (Sun or Moon or Chiron, etc.) for determined periods of time I may get more out of it.