stella01904
MM ~ This is not the one R.G. is referring to, but I think the platter-like object being held up looks like a pentacle. http://www.tarothermit.com/marseilles.htm That's all that's missing from the Conver, the pentacle.BB, Stella
Who historically put magic in The Magician?
le pendu
Hi Stella,
You might find this interesting:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=17349
best,
robert
You might find this interesting:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=17349
best,
robert
DoctorArcanus
Visconti Sforza Bagatto
I think bagatto means "cheap street merchant". Here in Milan, you can see "bagatto" written as a sign in street markets, meaning more or less "bargain". This seems to agree with the image of the Visconti Sforza card - see the high quality image posted by Robert Le Pendu http://quatramaran.ens.fr/~madore/visconti-tarots/large/arcanum-01-magician.jpg - but I don't understand what this merchant sells. In my opinion, magic was not an intended meaning in this wonderful card.
I think these images could be somehow similar to the Visconti-Sforza bagatto
Lawyer: http://www.statuti.unibo.it/Notaio3fonte.html
Merchant: http://www.istitutodatini.it/collane/htm/sparse2.htm
Banker: http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gossaert/gossaert13.html
Artist: http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH_214images/Durer/Durer_perspNude.jpg
So the knife, glass and thin stick could be writing/drawing tools (like the lawyer's or artist's). The two coins could be appropriate for a banker or goldsmith...or any kind of street merchant actually.
Still I have no idea of what the white stuff near the bagatto's right hand is. What do you think?
Marco
I think bagatto means "cheap street merchant". Here in Milan, you can see "bagatto" written as a sign in street markets, meaning more or less "bargain". This seems to agree with the image of the Visconti Sforza card - see the high quality image posted by Robert Le Pendu http://quatramaran.ens.fr/~madore/visconti-tarots/large/arcanum-01-magician.jpg - but I don't understand what this merchant sells. In my opinion, magic was not an intended meaning in this wonderful card.
I think these images could be somehow similar to the Visconti-Sforza bagatto
Lawyer: http://www.statuti.unibo.it/Notaio3fonte.html
Merchant: http://www.istitutodatini.it/collane/htm/sparse2.htm
Banker: http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gossaert/gossaert13.html
Artist: http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH_214images/Durer/Durer_perspNude.jpg
So the knife, glass and thin stick could be writing/drawing tools (like the lawyer's or artist's). The two coins could be appropriate for a banker or goldsmith...or any kind of street merchant actually.
Still I have no idea of what the white stuff near the bagatto's right hand is. What do you think?
Marco
le pendu
Hi Marco,
We had a discussion about what was on the table and now I can't find it anywhere, I wonder if we lost it (among a few threads) when AT was hacked last year?
My memory says that the final conclusion was that it was probably a hat. I remember some people suggesting it might be a purse, or a cake.
As a hat, it might have been used for "hat tricks" where things appear and dissappear out of the hat.
As for your point, I'm pretty sure the "Mantegna Tarot" depicts the "artisan" in the same way as what you mention:
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/MANTEG03.jpg
If you have trouble viewing the image, or wish to view the entire page, here is more info on the Mantegna:
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards27.htm
Andy says "ARTIXAN · III - The Artisan is probably a goldsmith, due to the small working tools scattered over his table, while an assistant peeps from behind. If we covered the left half of this illustration, we would obtain a typical tarot's Magician (with the only difference that the Artisan is sitting). The assistant too recalls the extra characters appearing in "southern pattern" tarots.
My understanding of the word Bagatto is that it means "A Trifle" ... a detail that is considered insignificant, something unimportant or minor. In the case of the Tarot, I'm under the impression that it refers to the POSITION of the card.
Is that close to what you mean by "bargain"? Does bagatto refer to the "a seller of trival things"? A seller of bargains? Would it be safe to assume that to an Italian audience in the 15th Century they would have looked at the card and seen no "magician", no "street-performer", no "trick performer" at all... but would have seen instead a merchant selling bargains?
This is very interesting.
robert
We had a discussion about what was on the table and now I can't find it anywhere, I wonder if we lost it (among a few threads) when AT was hacked last year?
My memory says that the final conclusion was that it was probably a hat. I remember some people suggesting it might be a purse, or a cake.
As a hat, it might have been used for "hat tricks" where things appear and dissappear out of the hat.
As for your point, I'm pretty sure the "Mantegna Tarot" depicts the "artisan" in the same way as what you mention:
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/MANTEG03.jpg
If you have trouble viewing the image, or wish to view the entire page, here is more info on the Mantegna:
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards27.htm
Andy says "ARTIXAN · III - The Artisan is probably a goldsmith, due to the small working tools scattered over his table, while an assistant peeps from behind. If we covered the left half of this illustration, we would obtain a typical tarot's Magician (with the only difference that the Artisan is sitting). The assistant too recalls the extra characters appearing in "southern pattern" tarots.
My understanding of the word Bagatto is that it means "A Trifle" ... a detail that is considered insignificant, something unimportant or minor. In the case of the Tarot, I'm under the impression that it refers to the POSITION of the card.
Is that close to what you mean by "bargain"? Does bagatto refer to the "a seller of trival things"? A seller of bargains? Would it be safe to assume that to an Italian audience in the 15th Century they would have looked at the card and seen no "magician", no "street-performer", no "trick performer" at all... but would have seen instead a merchant selling bargains?
This is very interesting.
robert
Rosanne
Thank You Doctor Arcanus and Le Pendu, the seller of trifles and bargains makes a lot of sense to me-when I first learned I was led to believe He was a Cobbler,Juggler, then a Magician. This sounds very appropriate-'Roll up Roll up- get your necessities for life here!' There are still vendors that travel with fairs, and set up their tables to sell bits and peices; many folk songs talk about the ribbons and such that are sold for the Ladies hair.~Rosanne
jmd
With regards to the object on the table of the Bateleur, certainly on the Marseille there is more abject ambiguity with regards to the major item on the right-hand side of the card than on some other decks.
In the thread that began this whole section of the Forums (I Le Bateleur) I also mention that on the Noblet it may also be a book, open with a kind of bookmark thereon.
I do tend to agree, however, that irrespective as to the depiction, what seems to be suggested are the 'tools of his trade', whether shown as cobbler, as merchant, or as some more ambiguous presentation.
In the thread that began this whole section of the Forums (I Le Bateleur) I also mention that on the Noblet it may also be a book, open with a kind of bookmark thereon.
I do tend to agree, however, that irrespective as to the depiction, what seems to be suggested are the 'tools of his trade', whether shown as cobbler, as merchant, or as some more ambiguous presentation.
DoctorArcanus
le pendu said:
Uhm, I think it could be a hat, even if the first impression I had was a heap of something (wool? small white coins?). I am quite sure it is not a cake...it could look like a cream cake but in 1450 Italy there was no such thing as a cream cake (before GE there were no refrigerators
)le pendu said:
This comparative argument is of the greatest value to me: thank you! Since the Mantegna tarot is an ancient deck, its interpretation of the images is quite relevant to shed light on older decks. I think this can be done for just a few cards, beeing Mantegna such a unique deck, but in this case the analogy is clear!
le pendu said:
Dummett agrees with you in interpreting the name of the card as a reference to its little value in the game. My Italian dictionary says that bagatto means "the first trump of tarots"
"Bagatella" is used to mean exactly "a trifle" (and this is still a common Italian word).
"Bagattino" was a small coin from Bologna (I didn't know this before reading the dictionary yesterday).
I am quite convinced that an Italian audience in the 15th Century would have looked at the card and seen no "magician", no "street-performer", no "trick performer" at all... but would have seen instead a merchant selling bargains.
It's impossible to come to an ultimate truth on the thoughts of 15th Century people, but your sentence expresses very well what I think......
Marco
le pendu
Oh, wouldn't that be great, to have Mr. Dummett agree with ME. Hee hee. Certainly, I am at best agreeing with him, or more likely, I learned it from him and didn't remember the source.DoctorArcanus said:
That's interesting, that may come in useful someday. Bologna.. hmm.DoctorArcanus said:
Just wild-guessing here.. I wonder if it was a "small-valued" coin? Wouldn't it be interesting to discover that the name Bagatto comes from the value of the coins his items sold for... mere trifles?
Thanks for the information Marco, and BTW, welcome to Aeclectic, we're certainly glad to have you here.
best,
robert
le pendu
Rosanne said:
Rosanne, it's great to have you in the conversation. I love the picture that you paint, and remember the old songs as well.
As for learning and relearning.. or more likely in the case of Tarot, ADDING and reADDING to our knowledge, it's great isn't it?
best,
robert
Sophie
And we might see an echo of that original name in the little coin Le Bateleur holds in the TdM...le pendu said:
Rosanne - I like you Roll up Roll up image too. A peddler? I see no contradiction with street performer, these were much of a muchness in medieval fairs. One might go as far as calling him a snake-oil merchant?
If you've ever observed a peddler at work in a fair (there are a few left), you will realise he does possess a kind of magic - he mesmerises crowds and gets housewives to open their purses...
Incidentally, a modern deck that ressucitates that ancient Bagatto - peddler meaning is the Housewives Tarot, with its door-to-door salesman magician.
