Useful Departure or Deviation?

During an early discussion with andybc when I first picked up Lenormand a couple of years ago, he made the point that the tradition didn't have a "sex" card or a "work" card. Conversely, every modern writer feels compelled to ascribe both of these to particular cards. It seems like "Well, everyone wants sex, and everyone needs work, so we gotta fit them in there somewhere." I had a rather stark encounter with this mindset over the past week-end.

I did three Grand Tableaux and and a 9-card square. The GTs all turned out to be mainly about work and career matters, while the question put to the square was about the advisability of long-distance travel. I still do occasional combo look-ups to check myself, and in all four readings there were narrowly worded sexual connotations in the reference material that had absolutely nothing to do with the realities at hand; the real crux of the matter was supervisor/employee professional relations in the GTs, and a platonic friendship between two female business partners in the fouth case. I was able to work these around to a more germane perspective, but it struck me as odd that my sources didn't display a more expansive and even-handed overview of the broader possibilites. They were definitely lacking in nuance.

What has your experience been with the Lilies, the Whip and the Snake, all of which have been pressed into service to denote sexual expression in certain combinations? Do you find the sexual overlay meaningful or just a display of expedience to address a void in the tradition that seems to be out of sync with modern interpretation? (Note that I'm more of a traditionalist and tend not to fall into the "modern" camp in many ways, but I know a lot of readers do.)

my experience with the Lilies card has been that it denotes rest and peace, or - no sex! Or, problems with sex. i.e. Lilies and Mountain...Whips has come up as sex, but usually only with the Sun or Heart card. Snake has only come up once as "the trouser snake" - with Sun, if I remember correctly. Overall, sex has not come up very often in my GT's or reads for others.

Like Padma, I rarely have sex come up. But maybe it would if there was an unambiguous card for it! ;-)

In my experience, Lilies almost always means that something will take a long time and/or the client needs to be patient.

Whip often comes up for me for sex too. I do a lot of readings for LGBT friends and Lilies often represents sexuality (never really had it for sex though) and also it comes up a lot for a supporter (allies) or a patron (for artists). I think it's more for passion than whip does but I don't think I have ever seen it depict sex in my readings.

for Work I always look for Anchor or Fish personally. Some people also Moon. There is an interesting past thread on AT discussing work cards as a significator here.

I don't see Snake for sex at all but I do think the wise female "healer" archetype idea about it is interesting (in a positive way).

I try to be flexible though because sometimes combinations depict sex or work and I don't expect those cards to mean that normally!

Padma said:

my experience with the Lilies card has been that it denotes rest and peace, or - no sex! Or, problems with sex. i.e. Lilies and Mountain...Whips has come up as sex, but usually only with the Sun or Heart card. Snake has only come up once as "the trouser snake" - with Sun, if I remember correctly. Overall, sex has not come up very often in my GT's or reads for others.

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Trouser snake! <gasp> Interestingly, I was talking to one of my querents about being "snaked" by his boss, which in - ahem - one sense fits right into that analogy. And it looked like the boss might do it again!

Some see the Whip as athletic energy, which makes it a leading candidate for the "sex" card if I felt the need for one. The Lilies card has been mentioned as "committed" (aka "marital" sex) vs the more "casual" sex of the Whip. In retrospect, I believe I've only seen the Snake in connection with illicit affairs, which is more about the deception than the sex. The Lenormand tradition most likely didn't embrace a "sex" card because it was unseemly to talk about such things in polite 19th century parlour society.

Thanks for reminding me, Danieljuk, I forgot to address the work thing!

The card meaning just a day to day job to pay the bills and stay alive, is to me, the Fox card. Or Fox can depict the actual job being done - for instance, Fox and Book = accountant or librarian, Fox and Tower, a hotel clerk, etc.

Anchor to me means stability as well as a calling - as opposed to a job. E.g. Anchor/Cross, someone with a "calling" to the church. Anchor/Tower, someone in the military, a calling to be a soldier or to serve the establishment in some way. Some work that is deeply satisfying.

Snake can also indicate a female employee - Snake and Bouquet, a woman who is a decorator (especially with House) or a beauty salon professional; Snake and Scythe, female surgeon; Snake and Book, female writer and so forth.

Moon to me is not work itself, but about one's reputation or public personae - like, Garden + Moon would be your reputation among friends, Fox + Moon your reputation as a worker, Anchor/Moon one's fame or renown in one's professional circle. Letter/Moon could indicate references, or a resume.

As always, it would largely depend on which cards fell where! The combos and houses alter and colour everything.

Padma said:

Thanks for reminding me, Danieljuk, I forgot to address the work thing!

The card meaning just a day to day job to pay the bills and stay alive, is to me, the Fox card. Or Fox can depict the actual job being done - for instance, Fox and Book = accountant or librarian, Fox and Tower, a hotel clerk, etc.

Anchor to me means stability as well as a calling - as opposed to a job. E.g. Anchor/Cross, someone with a "calling" to the church. Anchor/Tower, someone in the military, a calling to be a soldier or to serve the establishment in some way. Some work that is deeply satisfying.

Snake can also indicate a female employee - Snake and Bouquet, a woman who is a decorator (especially with House) or a beauty salon professional; Snake and Scythe, female surgeon; Snake and Book, female writer and so forth.

Moon to me is not work itself, but about one's reputation or public personae - like, Garden + Moon would be your reputation among friends, Fox + Moon your reputation as a worker, Anchor/Moon one's fame or renown in one's professional circle. Letter/Moon could indicate references, or a resume.

As always, it would largely depend on which cards fell where! The combos and houses alter and colour everything.

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I'm (ever so) slowly coming around to the idea that Fox has a relation to the actual job or work situation. My early impression was that - given the cleverness of the Fox - it could certainly have something to do with the skills or talents one brings to the job. Anchor and Moon are the primary "work" cards for me, though. Maybe Fox would suit me for "temp," "per diem" or "day-labor" situations that are less stable or "fixed" in nature - the "coming-and-going" idea. More to think about here.

Aster Breo said:

Like Padma, I rarely have sex come up. But maybe it would if there was an unambiguous card for it! ;-)

In my experience, Lilies almost always means that something will take a long time and/or the client needs to be patient.

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Yes! I long for unambiguous cards! and I have definitely seen the Lilies as something that needs to take time to come to fruition. Whereas Tree is a long and tedious wait, Lilies to me means waiting for the fruit to ripen, so, I suppose, a different kind of waiting.

Barleywine said:

Trouser snake! <gasp> Interestingly, I was talking to one of my querents about being "snaked" by his boss, which in - ahem - one sense fits right into that analogy. And it looked like the boss might do it again!

Some see the Whip as athletic energy, which makes it a leading candidate for the "sex" card if I felt the need for one. The Lilies card has been mentioned as "committed" (aka "marital" sex) vs the more "casual" sex of the Whip. In retrospect, I believe I've only seen the Snake in connection with illicit affairs, which is more about the deception than the sex. The Lenormand tradition most likely didn't embrace a "sex" card because it was unseemly to talk about such things in polite 19th century parlour society.

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I can see where Snake could be literally getting screwed by your boss! And I think that you are spot on with the description of the Victorian salon...I like the idea of Lilies describing a more "mature" marital sex, as opposed to the more athletic and adventurous Whips!

Barleywine said:

I'm (ever so) slowly coming around to the idea that Fox has a relation to the actual job or work situation. My early impression was that - given the cleverness of the Fox - it could certainly have something to do with the skills or talents one brings to the job. Anchor and Moon are the primary "work" cards for me, though. Maybe Fox would suit me for "temp," "per diem" or "day-labor" situations that are less stable or "fixed" in nature - the "coming-and-going" idea. More to think about here.

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I think Fox would suit those things admirably. I like your take on it as being coming and going, more transient in nature than the very committed Anchor career.

Different Lenormand Systems:

Fox (Work), Whip (Sex), Bear (Finances)...... French.
Anchor (Work), Lily (Sex), Fish (Finances)..... German.

Few other cards differ as well.

My question would be if Madam Lenormand was French and breathed, lived, and died in France would it be fair to say then that the "closest system" to her would be the French one rather than German or any other?