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Huck  Huck is offline
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hi Coredil,

As previously noted, there is a German book in the Baumgärtner Verlag, 1793 ...



One can recognize the 1793, also the title. The book was sold together with Etteilla cards, which had German titles.

"Baumgärtner" in the search engine of AT and also in that of another Tarothistory forum leads to some earlier remarks about it.
It runs under the name Alliette, not that of Etteilla.

This text of 1845 gives a passage, which likely more or less was copied from the 1793 edition. Kwaw detected it.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...201793&f=false

This pdf has the picture above and a description of the book in a library in Mainz.
http://eprints.rclis.org/17240/1/Ott...chsen_nach.pdf

Scheible 1857 likely depended on one of the earlier texts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post

Re: the Finet Nouvel Eteila, ou Petit necromancien. Oracle des Dames. I have messaged Thiery Depaulis, Phillipa Plock & Waddeson Manor enquiring whether it bears any relation to the BM set, which I suspect it does. Hopefully I will receive an answer to confirm whether it does or does'nt.

Re: Lucine - it is a name meaning 'moon' in one language I can't recall at the moment, but is generally taken to mean "she who brings children into the light" (Latin: lux, lucis, "light"). It was a name associated with Juno/Hera, invoked esp. in relation to weddings and childbirth.

In Greek mythology, Eileithyia (Greek Εἰλείθυια / Eileíthuia) -- the goddess of childbirth, corresponds to Lucine in Roman mythology, a child of Juno and Jupiter. The name was also used as an epiteth of Juno.
The motif contains twins, Juno in one version of mythology interpretation was mother to Ares and Eris (beside Eileithiya and Hebe). So Ares and Eris might be regarded as twins (in this interpretation).
The idea to interpret Lucine simply as Luna seems to be stupid ... it isn't Lunine, but Lucine, likely referring to Lux and not Luna. So one should think of lights and Sun and Moon and Apollo and Artemis and their mother Leto, who gave birth to them as twins.

Artemis took the birth helping function from Eileithiya, who didn't become popular.
The POdD picture adds the terminus "Fécondité" to "Lucine", indicating "fertility".
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9condit%C3%A9



POdD has the figure with the symbol of "Cornucopia", ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopia
... it's paired with a negative "celibataire, indecision", which means "single and alone and not decided" as contrast.

The Cornucopia reappears in the following card 26, which presents ...



... "l'abondance" (somehow well-being) in contrast to the vague situation of "L'Esperance" (= Hope).

The divination deck of c. 1790 uses the cornucopia for "49 La Paix" (= Peace) in contrast to "50 La Guerre" (= "War").



The picture contains part of a sun, possibly this card means "Sun" as a planet. And "War" naturally might mean "Mars" as a planet.

The Angel figure at 25 Lucine in POdD looks like "L'Hymen" at 24 POdD ...



... paired in negative contrast to a man with horse leaving a woman in tears (this negative figure appears also in the BM deck card 19, then as a lonesome rider with similar keywords).

"L'Hymen" appears also at ...



.. in the divination deck c. 1790, also as card Nr. 6 in the BM deck.

So there are a lot of internal relations in these different decks.

L'Hymen has the Nr. 24 in POdD and Nr. 24 in the Spiel der Hoffnung (now given to 1798, so close to POdD and BM deck) has also a special erotical meaning (symbol: heart), forming a relation to card 28 (woman number) and 29 (man number; for reasons of the connected dice game). In Minchiate card 24 is the first of the zodiac, and related to the zodiac sign Libra with functions for love, wedding and marriage.
L'Hymen (Hymenaios) was a figure, which appeared during the wedding celebrations since very old Greek times.


from festival book of the wedding of Costanzo Sforza with Camilla d'Aragon 1475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
However ... another sentence:
"Depaulis (correspondence 18 June 2009) now dates the game slightly later, circa 1810, and notes that there are suit signs."
I assume it is talked from the 36 cards in British Museum (?). If it is from 1810, it is outside of our discussion. But maybe it was reprint of the earlier Finet deck.
No, it is discussing an uncut sheet in the Rothschild collection the cataloger calls 'Le Nouvel Eteila, ou le petit necromancien. Petit Oracle des Dames.' (Of which I now have a low resolution copy -- courtesy of Phillipa Plock & Waddeson Manor.)

The BM has now been positively identified as another copy of the Nouvel Eteila - what we cannot know about it is whether it a Finet or a Robert (both of whom sold the Nouvel Eteila from the same address).

So we have two Etteilla variants (Nouvel Eteila, and the PoDD) that contain motifs from the c.1790 pack. Those in the NE seem direct copies, those in the PoDD more like adaptions on the theme. The NE also uses images from the 1790 that are not used as motifs in the PoDD.

It is not outside of our topic (Etteilla Timeline), for the NE is a different variant to the PoDD, but both having some themes in common with the 1790, either directly or indirectly (the NE seems more obviously directly, the motifs being more or less exact copies -- the fact they are reversed would indicate they have been copied as is from the 1790, and thus become reversed in the printing process).

While the link between the NE and 1790 is obvious, we do not know that any common theme in the Saint-Sauver PoDD and the 1790 is anything but accidental, perhaps Saint-Sauver was inspired by some other source? For example re; Lucine:

"Les Majorquins pretendent qu’Hamilcar, passant d’Afrique en Catalogne avec sa femme, alors enceinte, arreta sur une pointe de l’ile ou etait bati un temple dedie a Lucine, et qu’Annibal naquit en cet endroit. On trouve ce meme conte dans l’Histoire de Majorque, par Dameto." (Grasset de Saint-Sauveur).

"The Majorcans pretend that Hamilcar, travelling from Africa to Catalonia with his wife, then pregnant, was arrested on the tip of the Island where a temple dedicated to Lucine was built, and that Annibal was born there. We find this same story in the History of Mallorca, by Dameto." (Grasset de Saint-Sauveur.)

In his Antiquities of Rome Saint-Sauveur mentions Junon Lucine:

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I forgot to mention that in the modern edition of the 1857 edition:
1. The As de Batons (card 33) has Geburt (Naissance - Birth) upright and Herabfall (Chute - Fall) as reverse
2. The cards 13 to 17 have the double numbering: 13/14, 14/15, 15/16, 16/17, 17/13
3. Cards 1 to 12 have an astrological sign

BTW, trying to re-read this fascinating but really heavy thread I notice post #39 from Sumada and his remark about the additionals numbers.
I had a look at my two copy of Grimaud Grand Etteilla.
One copy (with tax stamp) has the extra number on card 15 (15/16),
the other copy (without tax stamp and another back pattern) does not have any extra number.
Top   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
hi Coredil,

As previously noted, there is a German book in the Baumgärtner Verlag, 1793 ...

One can recognize the 1793, also the title. The book was sold together with Etteilla cards, which had German titles.

"Baumgärtner" in the search engine of AT and also in that of another Tarothistory forum leads to some earlier remarks about it.
It runs under the name Alliette, not that of Etteilla.

This text of 1845 gives a passage, which likely more or less was copied from the 1793 edition. Kwaw detected it.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...201793&f=false

This pdf has the picture above and a description of the book in a library in Mainz.
http://eprints.rclis.org/17240/1/Ott...chsen_nach.pdf

Scheible 1857 likely depended on one of the earlier texts.
Of course I had read your post and I was aware of the 1793 edition as I posted the information about an available version of the Scheible 1857 edition. So I am not sure what you mention it again.
This thread has quite eine überwältigende Unmenge and Informationen! (an overwhelming vast amount of informations)

I find it very curious that Helmut Werner as the editor of the modern version does not mention the Baumgärtner 1793 edition.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coredil View Post
Of course I had read your post and I was aware of the 1793 edition as I posted the information about an available version of the Scheible 1857 edition. So I am not sure what you mention it again.
This thread has quite eine überwältigende Unmenge and Informationen! (an overwhelming vast amount of informations)

I find it very curious that Helmut Werner as the editor of the modern version does not mention the Baumgärtner 1793 edition.
Sorry ... somehow you expressed it in a manner, that I imagined you didn't. Yes, the thread has too much posts. It becomes too difficult to find things.

The attention about the Baumgärtner deck is from recent time ... DDD hasn't the name in the register, but reports the deck and book (p. 113) and also the name Baumgärtner. And there is a deck in the British Museum.
Actually I might have brought it up at 9th of May 2012 in a friendly Tarotforum, when I curiously in the research about Grasset-St.Sauveur stumbled about an pdf-file about an exhibition in Mainz.

Quote:
I found this:





That's the first Etteilla deck in Germany (Baumgärtner 1793) ... in an archive in Mainz
Following on this is ... (but not related)





This is given as having been in the possession of an earlier Mainzer mayor (? ... who possibly had also the Etteilla?)
The pdf-address is http://eprints.rclis.org/17240/1/Ott...chsen_nach.pdf
... and the date of publication is 2008.

Baumgärtner had started his publishing house just in this year 1793 and had success with his enterprise.

*********

Inspired by thisdialogue I attempted to find the Baumgärtner deck of the British Museum ... no success. But what I found is this ...

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...tteilla&page=1

Grasset St. Sauveur is given as the producer of an Etteilla deck in c. 1800 ...

Quote:
Object type print playing-card

Museum number: 1896,0501.715.1-32
Description: Incomplete piquet pack with 31 of 32 playing-cards for cartomancy (Etteilla), plus one extra card

Hand-coloured etching
Backs: plain
Circa 1789-1804
Producer name: Published by: St Sauveur
School/style: French
Date: 1800 (circa)
Production place: Paris(Europe,France,Ile-de-France (département),Paris)
Dimensions: Height: 78 millimetres Width: 54 millimetres


Each card has in its centre a representation of a smaller card surrounded by various words and numbers. The pack has one extra card with "No. 1 Etteilla ou le Questionant" which bears the address "Chez le Cen. (citoyen) St Sauveur, Rue Nicaise...a Paris".

Curator's comments: This pack is similar in character to 1896,0501.709. That it was made during the period surrounding the Revolutionary War is evident by St Sauveur's title of 'Citizen' .The missing card is the ace of diamonds.
Rue Nicaise ...
I've confirmation for the address of Grasset-St.Sauveur as Rue Nicaise in 1796 (possibly also in others years), since 1798 he uses the Maison la France at rue Coq-heron, from which he gave announcements for the POdD.

Maybe I'd this result earlier, but the older research is 3 years ago and I forgot a few things about it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
Inspired by thisdialogue I attempted to find the Baumgärtner deck of the British Museum ... no success.
Try this adress:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...hText=etteilla

The german deck is the for last one in the third row
Top   #357
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hi Stephen,

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
No, it is discussing an uncut sheet in the Rothschild collection the cataloger calls 'Le Nouvel Eteila, ou le petit necromancien. Petit Oracle des Dames.' (Of which I now have a low resolution copy -- courtesy of Phillipa Plock & Waddeson Manor.)

The BM has now been positively identified as another copy of the Nouvel Eteila - what we cannot know about it is whether it a Finet or a Robert (both of whom sold the Nouvel Eteila from the same address).
So I was fooled ... alright. I fight with gaps of my memory.

I've here a list, when I mentioned the Petit Necromancien.
http://tarotforum.net/search.php?searchid=5604593

I find this ...

https://books.google.de/books?id=Udh...ancien&f=false

... from which I note, that you and MikeH discussed it six days ago.

There's a Petit Necromancien mentioned (1802, Fleischer) ... is this already discussed?

At that time I added ...
http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=15
Quote:
This text, from the year 1802, "Annuaire de la Librairie" by Wilhelm Fleischer presents an object with the name "Le Petit Nécromancien" and we know, that according Depaulis in c. 1810 an object is addressed, which was a card deck (36 cards) with similarities to the Petit Oracle des Dames.
Further is advertised an card deck with 42 "tableaux", and we know that the Petit Oracle des Dames decks have also 42 cards.

The whole possibly indicates, that one publisher (likely from Bordeaux) or "auteur" manufactured all three decks "with similarities" in a creative output, and threw them all around the same time on the market.

Under this condition not only the date of the Petit Oracle des Dames (1807) must be corrected, but also the date for the Petit Nécromancien (1810).
Another problem is the "Petit Horoscope de les dames". The product name disappears from the records of books.google.com, as far I remember, Fleischer was the only one, who noted it. Either this is just the POdD with another name, or the name was changed or it was without success.
The address is Bordeaux, and the mentioned distributor for Paris is Barba, both are also noted for the Petit Necromancien.
So one has to assume, that it was another product from the direction of Grasset St.Sauvert.

Following the 3 considered entries at Fleischer (same page) a product about loterie in combination with pictures is mentioned, which ends with the note, that one gets it "chez Labrousse".



Labrousse is the name of an engraver, who cooperated with Grasset-St.Sauveur long time, and the deck of 1820 (with some motifs of POdD and recognized as being from Grasset-St.Sauvert combines Lotto numbers with pictures).






from kwaw
Quote:
So we have two Etteilla variants (Nouvel Eteila, and the PoDD) that contain motifs from the c.1790 pack. Those in the NE seem direct copies, those in the PoDD more like adaptions on the theme. The NE also uses images from the 1790 that are not used as motifs in the PoDD.

It is not outside of our topic (Etteilla Timeline), for the NE is a different variant to the PoDD, but both having some themes in common with the 1790, either directly or indirectly (the NE seems more obviously directly, the motifs being more or less exact copies -- the fact they are reversed would indicate they have been copied as is from the 1790, and thus become reversed in the printing process).
I had some material to NE earlier, also some pictures, but I think, I don't know it completely.

Quote:
While the link between the NE and 1790 is obvious, we do not know that any common theme in the Saint-Sauver PoDD and the 1790 is anything but accidental, perhaps Saint-Sauver was inspired by some other source? For example re; Lucine:

"Les Majorquins pretendent qu’Hamilcar, passant d’Afrique en Catalogne avec sa femme, alors enceinte, arreta sur une pointe de l’ile ou etait bati un temple dedie a Lucine, et qu’Annibal naquit en cet endroit. On trouve ce meme conte dans l’Histoire de Majorque, par Dameto." (Grasset de Saint-Sauveur).

"The Majorcans pretend that Hamilcar, travelling from Africa to Catalonia with his wife, then pregnant, was arrested on the tip of the Island where a temple dedicated to Lucine was built, and that Annibal was born there. We find this same story in the History of Mallorca, by Dameto." (Grasset de Saint-Sauveur.)

In his Antiquities of Rome Saint-Sauveur mentions Junon Lucine:

Interesting, then a Juno-Lucine relation existed at that time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
hi Stephen,

I think, I start to understand you.

But ...



I interpret this info (from 1898, son rather late) as a summary to advertisements, that an author collected at a much later time. He talks of 3 different objects:

1. Petit Oracles des Dames (I guess, as we know it, with 42 cards)
2. Petit Necromancien
3. Tarot with 36 cartes "non decoupee" (I interpret "non decoupee" as 36 cards as a sheet, not cut)
I can understand how you read it that way -- but I have now seen a copy of an uncut sheet,and can positively confirm the title 'Nouvel Eteila, ou petit necromancien" and 'Le Petit Oracle des Dames' is printed upon it, and that the cards are the same as those at the BM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
I can understand how you read it that way -- but I have now seen a copy of an uncut sheet,and can positively confirm the title 'Nouvel Eteila, ou petit necromancien" and 'Le Petit Oracle des Dames' is printed upon it, and that the cards are the same as those at the BM.
Okay, then it's simply the case ...

1. Petit Oracles des Dames (I guess, as we know it, with 42 cards)
2. Petit Necromancien = the BM-deck, that we know
3. Tarot with 36 cartes "non decoupee" (I interpret "non decoupee" as 36 cards as a sheet, not cut) = unknown object, as a Tarot deck curiously with 36 cards instead of 78, possibly 22 trumps + 14 courts only.

In the case of the Minchiate Francesi I saw a deck which had decorated only the trumps, and the number cards had very simple French suit signs without any additions. Perhaps something comparable for these Tarot cards. It's anway strange, that the announce speaks of "non decoupee" and that the BM has just a sheet and not single cards.

Added:
Actually I had this result at least in parts earlier ...
http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=12
... but I had only 8 cards of Etteilla in mind then.
Top   #360

 





 


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