EDSG #2 - King Cups, 3 Cups, Queen Swords

For this next set of cards, we have Kings Cups (KC), 3 Cups (3C) and Queen Swords (QS). Cups are Water and Swords are Air. Water and Air are neutral to one another. Water is passive and Air is active. The triad is represented as WWA.

From my notes from the Supertarot website, all permutations of this triad are predominantly passive. WWA and AWW show emotions winning out over thoughts, leading to lots of dreams and fantasies and a total lack of reality. WAW represents an intellectual impulse arising from conflicting emotional experience and the need to replace emotions with logic.

Looking at the interactions under the main topics of Work/Career, Relationships, Finances and Home, we have:

Work/Career
WWA - Your workplace is lots of fun (3C), leaving you committed and loyal to the job (KC) even though logically you could do better elsewhere (QS).
WAW - You're the logical and rational voice (QS) in an office full of fun people/partiers (3S) and your boss is everybody's friend instead of the boss (KC).
AWW - You're committed to the job (KC) and enjoy the work you do (3C), despite your sharp-tongued and critical co-worker (QS).

Relationships
WWA - You're happy in your relationship (3C) with an emotionally mature man (KC) despite his hypercritical mother (QS).
WAW - You're becoming more vocal (QS) about all the partying (3C) your boyfriend (KC) is doing.
AWW - You're committed to your girlfriend (KC), but you miss hanging out with the guys (3C), which you don't do as much as you used to because your girlfriend gets on your case whenever you do (QS).

Finances
WWA - The amount of money you spend when you go out with the boys (3C) is starting to come between you (KC) and your wife (QS).
WAW - Rationally (QS), you know that partying every weekend (3C) isn't the most practical use of your money (KC).
AWW - Wise counsel (KC) from a sharp-tongued woman (QS) about the amount of money you're spending partying (3C).

Home
WWA - Your house is party central (3C) when your parents (KC and QS) are gone. Your dad is understanding (KC), but you know you're gonna hear about it from your mom (QS).
WAW - The woman (QS) runs the household because the man (KC) has a drinking problem (3C).
AWW - A loving household (KC) that's full of lots of joy and good times (3C), but you have a neighbor who's always complaining about all your celebrations (QS).

Thanks for posting this interesting trio Rodney.

I am now realising how when you start in the middle, and read to the left and then right, you get the 'story'.

Interestingly on this pairing, although the Queen of Swords is the only air card amongst two water cards, by being active, she does pack quite a punch and really can bring strong dynamics to the overall interpretation. Hard to explain, but it reminds me of those wrestling tag team battles where one determined dude can take on the pairing of the opposition, even though outnumbered

I will lay this out myself over the next couple of days if I get the chance (I have visitors arriving from Australia for a few days - due to land in the next hour!!) and post my takes also, but still using the main themed headings you used.

This trio seems to really click whereas the previous example still swam around my head somewhat.

Just a quick observation... with the Queen of S facing to the right (and I often see that as what is coming or the future) I just sense she is turning her back on all the celebrations etc of the central card and is giving me the impression of washing her hands of the situation and wanting nothing more to do with it. As I said, once I have time to lay the cards out and give my own take, that may make more sense or show more context.

Davina

rwcarter said:

WWA and AWW show emotions winning out over thoughts, leading to lots of dreams and fantasies and a total lack of reality.
WAW represents an intellectual impulse arising from conflicting emotional experience and the need to replace emotions with logic.

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Are these your conclusions? Or is the above explanation something you came across c/o the Supertarot website?

I don't follow this type of thinking, given that i can think of nothing with regard to the "meanings" typically associated with the cards drawn, that would suggest interactions such as: conflict or competition.

& Although I understand that friendly "elemental interactions" can strengthen the action (or influence) of the card, for good OR ill, and that passive energy dominates both these triads (WWA & AWW), to my mind this doesn't necessarily suggest emotions winning out over thoughts, or conflicting emotional experience.

So altho i can see your statements/(above) as "plausible", I don't quite see them as being "definitive". So i'm wondering whether what you penned is your "personal opinion" re: your take on the cards?

Also re: this set of cards, can you give me an example which supports what you've explained, because altho i've read over what you've posted, i'm just not seeing this. But then again, for a novice such as myself this is a lil mind boggling .. tho very/very informative .. so many thanks for taking the time to work out all the various interpretations, t'is a veritable goldmine (rich learning environment/exercise).

Tho perhaps you could post three interpretations that speak directly to your statements as quoted above.

Hi Jenessa

Rodney has started this study group, with this thread giving a lot by way of initial explanation.

I suggest you have a read, as it may explain some of his reasoning? You are right though - it can be complex, but I think by seeing various scenarios over the forthcoming weeks you will get a better understanding. This trio has certainly gone some way to making things clearer in my head.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=185921

shadowdancer said:

Hi Jenessa

Rodney has started this study group, with this thread giving a lot by way of initial explanation. I suggest you have a read, as it may explain some of his reasoning? [url http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=185921[/url]

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I am familar with this thread .. indeed, i have "studied" ALL the threads that have been posted thus far with respect to the EDSG.

Furthermore, and as you will note, my query was to be provided with three examples to support his explanation as quoted, because altho I understand his rhetoric, i'm not sure how this was arrived @, in the sense that I'm unclear as to how this theory was applied to the cards drawn.

& Yes i agree that by seeing various scenarios over the forthcoming weeks, things will "click" re: gaining a better understanding of how ed's work. However, having said that, every now and again its nice for someone to explain their thot process &/or offer an explanation as to how the rules are being applied.

Also just so you know: i've been studying ed's (altho very casually due to time restrictions) for the past 8-10 years, so i've got a basic understanding re: this subject, tho i'm hoping to gain valuable insights c/o this group.

REGARDS/jenessa

rwcarter said:

From my notes from the Supertarot website, all permutations of this triad are predominantly passive. WWA and AWW show emotions winning out over thoughts, leading to lots of dreams and fantasies and a total lack of reality. WAW represents an intellectual impulse arising from conflicting emotional experience and the need to replace emotions with logic.

Click to expand...

jenessa said:

Are these your conclusions? Or is the above explanation something you came across c/o the Supertarot website?

Click to expand...

Those are from my notes from the Supertarot website, which I included in this second round because others had brought in active and passive elements in the first round.

About to head to bed in a bit, so I'll have to come back to the rest of your post tomorrow.

jenessa said:

So altho i can see your statements/(above) as "plausible", I don't quite see them as being "definitive". So i'm wondering whether what you penned is your "personal opinion" re: your take on the cards?

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I never claimed to give any definitive interpretations of the triads.

jenessa said:

Also re: this set of cards, can you give me an example which supports what you've explained, because altho i've read over what you've posted, i'm just not seeing this.

Click to expand...

Work/Career
WWA - Your workplace is lots of fun (3C), leaving you committed and loyal to the job (KC) (emotions) even though logically you could do better elsewhere (QS) (thoughts).

Relationships
WWA - You're happy in your relationship (3C) with an emotionally mature man (KC) (emotions) despite his hypercritical mother (QS).(thoughts/words)

Finances
WAW - Rationally (QS) (thoughts), you know that partying every weekend (3C) isn't the most practical use of your money (KC), but that doesn't stop you (emotions).


Home
AWW - A loving household (KC) that's full of lots of joy and good times (3C) (emotions), but you have a neighbor who's always complaining about all your celebrations (QS). (thoughts/words)

Emotions can be things like love but they can also be doing the things one loves. Thoughts can also be words or the voice of dissent.

rwcarter said:

For this next set of cards, we have Kings Cups (KC), 3 Cups (3C) and Queen Swords (QS).
Cups are Water and Swords are Air. Water and Air are neutral to one another.
Water is passive and Air is active.

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Thanks for providing an example for each of the triads, and for taking the time to explain how you applied the rhetoric (below) you came across c/o the Supertarot website to the cards drawn.

rwcarter said:

WWA and AWW show emotions winning out over thoughts, leading to lots of dreams and fantasies and a total lack of reality.
WAW represents an intellectual impulse arising from conflicting emotional experience and the need to replace emotions with logic.

Click to expand...

Personally I like this bit of rhetoric (very concise & well thot out). Not to mention, that as i'd mentioned earlier I think it plausible that the cards could be interpretated in this manner re: their elemental interaction, tho IMO this approach is more insightful with regard to arriving @ an interptn., than it is a hard & fast rule. Or rather should I say, i'm inclined to view this bit of rhetoric as being insightful, as opposed to being definitive. Not that i'm complaining tho, given that i'm hoping to gain insight when it comes to reading according to dignity.

Indeed, i'm beginning to wonder whether there are rules that apply to the various combinations of elements that could potentially arise when reading TRIADS?

I'm also wondering whether you've read the Qn Swords as ill-dignified, so as to conform to this bit of rhetoric?
Leastways to my mind, it appears that you are viewing the "negative aspect" of this card, given that a negative aspect of this Queen is her tendency to be sharp tongued, whereas if she was positively aspected she would be seen as being direct and forthcoming re: the manner in which she communicates.

In any event, can you confirm whether you are viewing Qn Swords as negatively aspected?, and IF so, can you explain why?

Further to which, and just so you know: when i view these cards I see friendly/strong interaction between the water cards/(cards of the same suit - Cups), and I also see the neutral interaction between this Queen (element of Air) and the Water cards.

So altho I understand that friendly elemental interactions can strengthen the action (or influence) of the cards to which this rule applies (for good or ill), as noted: this would apply to the Water cards, NOT the Qn Swords who is elementally associated with Air.

Furthermore, and as this Queen/Air has a neutral elemental interaction in relation to the Water/Cup cards, i can't fathom why she would be interpreted as ill-dignified?

Tho you did mention that this triad illustrates both passive and active elemental interaction, so i'm wondering IF you have somehow interpreted the Queen according to her suit quality (air), which is viewed as active?

Rodney, what i'm getting @ is to my mind you've chosen to interpret the Qn. as being "negatively aspected", but i'm not sure why?
.. perhaps the way you've interpreted the Queen has something to do with her active quality? .. or perhaps your interprtn was in keeping with the rhetoric you noted re: this specific combination of elements? Whatever, I can't understand how the Queens neutral (albeit active) interaction with the suit of Cups would result in her being viewed as negatively aspected?

& To some degree the same lack of comprehension applies to the rhetoric which implies that this combination of elements (WWA and AWW) show: emotions winning out over thoughts. WHY would emotions win-out over thoughts when the quality of thought is present in this throw? & By this I mean that the quality of thought is literally an active part of this triad, so why would this triad be interpretated in such a manner so as to negate (& otherwise nullify) this quality?

Also just so you know I appreciate your clarifying that: "Emotions can be things like love but they can also be doing the things one loves. Thoughts can also be words or the voice of dissent".

REGARDS/jenessa

jenessa said:

Personally I like this bit of rhetoric (very concise & well thot out). Not to mention, that as i'd mentioned earlier I think it plausible that the cards could be interpretated in this manner re: their elemental interaction, tho IMO this approach is more insightful with regard to arriving @ an interptn., than it is a hard & fast rule. Or rather should I say, i'm inclined to view this bit of rhetoric as being insightful, as opposed to being definitive. Not that i'm complaining tho, given that i'm hoping to gain insight when it comes to reading according to dignity.

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Just as there is no one set of definitive tarot meanings, there is no one set of definitive rules for applying EDs. Some of the Golden Dawn rules for applying EDs made no sense to me, so I developed rules of my own that make sense to me. If they don't make sense to you (or anyone else), that's fine. Someone in the first week applied traditional GD rules that didn't make sense to me in a way that almost did, which reminds me that I need to go back to the first thread and reread that.

jenessa said:

Indeed, i'm beginning to wonder whether there are rules that apply to the various combinations of elements that could potentially arise when reading TRIADS?

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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Paul Hughes-Barlow has redone the SuperTarot site (many times, I'm sure) since I took my original notes, so I don't know where on the site he now goes over the different triads in the way I listed. Mary K Greer looks at them a different way in Appendix D of 21 Ways to Read a Tarot Card. The tarotelements site looks at them a third way.

jenessa said:

I'm also wondering whether you've read the Qn Swords as ill-dignified, so as to conform to this bit of rhetoric?

Leastways to my mind, it appears that you are viewing the "negative aspect" of this card, given that a negative aspect of this Queen is her tendency to be sharp tongued, whereas if she was positively aspected she would be seen as being direct and forthcoming re: the manner in which she communicates.

In any event, can you confirm whether you are viewing Qn Swords as negatively aspected?, and IF so, can you explain why?

Click to expand...

I see the entire spectrum of meanings in the upright card since I don't use reversed cards. And the way I use EDs, neutral cards can stay neutral, they can become friendly or they can turn unfriendly depending on the situation. In 2 of the 3 Work interpretations I read the QS in a more positive light. In 2 of the 3 Relationship interpretations I read her more negatively. I'd argue that in 2 of the 3 Finance interpretations the QS is interpreted in a positive manner and in the third she's interpreted neutrally. In the Home interpretations, I read the QS more negatively in 2 of the 3 interpretations. Sharp-tongued and direct are different sides of the same coin. For most folks, whether the QS is being sharp-tongued or direct depends on whether she's talking to them or someone else.

jenessa said:

Furthermore, and as this Queen/Air has a neutral elemental interaction in relation to the Water/Cup cards, i can't fathom why she would be interpreted as ill-dignified?

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As I said above, it all depends on which side of the coin you are. In the WWA Relationship interpretation, the woman may think her boyfriend/husband's mother is being hypercritical while the mother may think she's just being honest and direct. Written from the mother's perspective, that interpretation could just as easily be, "Your adult son (KC) is happy in his relationship (3C) because of all the sound advice (QS) you give to him and his girlfriend."

jenessa said:

Tho you did mention that this triad illustrates both passive and active elemental interaction, so i'm wondering IF you have somehow interpreted the Queen according to her suit quality (air), which is viewed as active?

Rodney, what i'm getting @ is to my mind you've chosen to interpret the Qn. as being "negatively aspected", but i'm not sure why?
.. perhaps the way you've interpreted the Queen has something to do with her active quality? .. or perhaps your interprtn was in keeping with the rhetoric you noted re: this specific combination of elements? Whatever, I can't understand how the Queens neutral (albeit active) interaction with the suit of Cups would result in her being viewed as negatively aspected?

Click to expand...

By my quick math, I interpreted the QS in a more positive manner 6 times, in a more negative manner 5 times and in a neutral manner once.

jenessa said:

& To some degree the same lack of comprehension applies to the rhetoric which implies that this combination of elements (WWA and AWW) show: emotions winning out over thoughts. WHY would emotions win-out over thoughts when the quality of thought is present in this throw? & By this I mean that the quality of thought is literally an active part of this triad, so why would this triad be interpretated in such a manner so as to negate (& otherwise nullify) this quality?

Click to expand...

There's strength in numbers. 2 Water cards win out over 1 Air card. That doesn't say that the thoughts are disregarded or negated, just that they're not acted upon - "I know I can make more money if I go work somewhere else, but this place is so much fun, I don't want to leave."