Noblet, Dodal, Conver... which is "truest"?

le pendu

Which deck do you think is most likely the closest to the original regional pattern? Noblet, Dodal, Conver, something else?

Also, having just received the Dusserre edition of the Tarot de Marseille, (thanks Kenji!), which is Jean Dodal's deck, I'm curious to know if a similar deck is available for Jean Noblet?

I have Jean-Claude Florney's wonderful restoration of the trumps, but would like a full deck reproduction.

robert
 

Diana

Robert: If you read this thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=21791

there is a post there in French, followed by its translation, which explains why Kris Hadar says that the Dodal is the truest.

He has presently convinced me of this. In his post I refer to, as well as in our private correspondence.

But I cannot give you my own arguments here - only point you to his. When his book comes out, he will be able to give more proof than he just makes in his short post.
 

tmgrl2

Diana, just read the link from Hadar...it's wonderful...thank you for your translation..I was thrilled I could read most of it without the translation....how amazingly complex the history is, especially when one looks at all the factors in play...who used the decks, literacy or lack thereof at the time .... the evolving French language/spelling....Now I am more interested to get the Camoin-Jodorowsky deck and book..

My main career is in speech/language pathology...with a heavy emphasis on phonology...so I found the phonological evolution particularly interesting...

terri
 

le pendu

Hi Diana,

Thank you for the link.

I'd love to read Kris Hadar's book, I hope at some point there will be an english translation! I have his deck and like it very much.

I wish I knew more about his sources. It's interesting to me how many things he seems to have changed from the Dodal.
One that strikes me is on Le Pendu, where the hands/wings? are no longer seen. The Noblet and the Dodal both have this feature, as does the Jean Payen.. so it seems an old feature.. I wonder why he removed them?

Interestingly, Jean-Claude Flornoy states on his website:

"The Dodal Tarot dates from 1701-1715, that of Payen was created in 1713. Dodal's engraver was still aware of the tarot's inner meaning. The young woman he depicts in arcanum XVII, the Star, is pregnant, the flames in the House of God (XVI) rise up...

As for Jean Noblet's engraver, working a century earlier than Conver's: he is by far the one in whom the traditions were most alive. "

http://letarot.com/letarot.eng/pages/26mains.htm

Robert
 

Rusty Neon

robertmealing said:

Interestingly, Jean-Claude Flornoy states on his website:

"The Dodal Tarot dates from 1701-1715, that of Payen was created in 1713. Dodal's engraver was still aware of the tarot's inner meaning. The young woman he depicts in arcanum XVII, the Star, is pregnant, the flames in the House of God (XVI) rise up...

As for Jean Noblet's engraver, working a century earlier than Conver's: he is by far the one in whom the traditions were most alive. "

http://letarot.com/letarot.eng/pages/26mains.htm

Robert

_If_ the Noblet deck were to be truest of the three to the authentic Marseilles tradition as regards all the major arcana, then what's especially interesting about the Noblet deck is that the XIII arcanum (the famous L'Arcane sans nom), untitled, of the Conver and Dodal decks is in fact titled LAMORT in the Noblet deck.

http://letarot.com/images/original_Noblet/lamort.htm
 

jmd

In some ways, there is a sense in which each of those three, as well as the more modern Marteau, Camoin and Hadar renditions, are 'true' to the Marseille deck.

In some way, it is a little like taking a number of roses from various rose-bushes and asking which is the 'truest' rose. They are all roses - yet the question also makes sense, for we can then really look carefully at each and see how particular growths may be... how shall I put it, deformations from an ideal which cannot manifest. Each will exhibit such.

Similarly, in my view, with Tarot - hence some of my earlier comments on the Ür-Tarot, the arche-typos which finds its ways in various manifestations or 'incarnations' of the Tarot.

The Noblet seems to take the opposite spectrum of the Vieville: the former naming every card, the latter none. The Noblet also has certain characteristics which tends to show the difficulty in some of the art of early wood-carving, with some of the images having rough-cuts or ambiguities which may not have been intended - as an obvious example, it could easily be that the Bateleur's raised hand first had its whole hand and wand, but that the upper portion broke off. The orientation of, for example, XIII (LAMORT - which sounds so much like 'L'Amour' - and thus a good reason, if nothing else, for it to remain un-named) is not consistent with Marseille patterning. Again, it could be that the carver began with an error, but, having worked on it, would either have to start again (on another piece of pear wood, perhaps), or determine that it shouldn't matter.

To my eyes, the Noblet has all the elements of a very fine deck, with, apart from some of these minute details, very careful rendering of what is 'important' - and J-C Flornoy has provided us with a means to hold at least the Major Arcana in our hands (as a limited edition, I suggest to all those interested to obtain a copy!).

The Conver has, for most of us, been the only full replica of an early and full Tarot deck obtainable. In that sense alone, it has attained a reputation and importance. For myself, it remains a deck from which I will continue to use as a means of comparison. For example, the triple nipple on one of the figures tied to the Devil's envil seems not only prominant, but of importance. This is to be balanced with details which seem to also be missing from the deck: does, staying for the same card as an example, the Devil properly need a facial depiction upon its belly as is the case in some other Marseille decks?

Nonetheless, the clarity is superb.

As for the Dodal, I have increasingly also come to value it for its seeming closeness to having incorporated nearly all the elements of central value in the Marseille - including numbering the Hanged Man as IIX; having a clear anvil as the Devil's pedestal, having one of the two depicted on the Sun with eyes closed; leaving XIII untitled; & numerous other details of note.

Which is 'truer'?

Each, as each rose, is a 'true' Marseille (despite not being from that maritime city), and each contains certain elements seemingly 'truer' than others.

One element I personally prefer from the Noblet is the ambiguity of the item on the Bateleur's table being an open book, not a bag; from the Dodal, the Devil card seems so potently clear; and from each of the others - modern or older - so many details!

If I had to design my own deck to reflect what I consider closest to the ideal, I would probably, at this stage, replicate more the Dodal than any other Marseille - yet also incorporate elements not in that deck.
 

lionette

I'm not clear if/where Ignaz Krebs falls in place with the others. Was he was a contemporary of these early cardmakers? Is his deck considered to be as rich as the other early versions of Marseilles

[edited to add: maybe I should have start a new thread for this question??]
 

Diana

robertmealing said:
I wish I knew more about his sources. It's interesting to me how many things he seems to have changed from the Dodal.
One that strikes me is on Le Pendu, where the hands/wings? are no longer seen. The Noblet and the Dodal both have this feature, as does the Jean Payen.. so it seems an old feature.. I wonder why he removed them?

I will ask him for you. He is unavailable for a few weeks, but I will make a draft e-mail so I won't forget to send it when he is again available.

He loves to answer questions about his deck...