The Empresses Bag? (Noblet)

Well the Noblet was made by a Parisian thus it is interesting but not surprising it has some imagery relates more to the Vieville and Belgium pattern popular in Northern France and creating some crossover points between them and the TdM.

The Vieville I think could also be read as having a bag on her lap, but on the other side not covered by the shield (though taken belt as hem of a bag a larger bag covered by shield could also be made out, the black line of the shield's edge is not carried into the red section);



this 'illusion' is present too in some varieties of the Belgium pattern such as the Bodet:





Whatever is meant to be represented there seems to be something meant to be suggested.

Kwaw

For myself, as I have said, I can see a bag - that is not the problem. The question for me is whether this is intended as a bag or whether it is another one of those 'butterfly' problems (or optical illusions).

Also, it just occurred to me that perhaps the shields are not seen in the manner I tend to predominantly see them: somewhat similar to the manner in which they are more carefully rendered in the Carey-Yale and Visconti Sforza, with only the remnant outline in the Vieville and Noblet, and ever greater losses of the detail in later decks: the 'cutting' (or properly, the bouche - or 'mouth') for the lance of the knight (this was explained to me in a far better way I could present by Trevor Hunter some years ago - mind you, his background in heraldry and his specific interest in the Visconti decks made that aspect all the more evident for him.

I personally do not agree that the lines have to show the shield as covered - though I agree that it can be seen in that manner (I am reminded of the old/young woman drawing for this). If one sees in the depiction of the shield as a remnant of the above kind of depiction, then it would explain the Vieville, and hence the lines that with time results progressively in mere curvatures.

....this does not, for myself at any rate, take in any manner away from the rich reflections that this thread has added by a more serious consideration of our perception of the depiction as bag and its vast symbolic references - or for that matter whether she can be seen similarly seated frontally or somewhat to the side.

jmd said:

I personally do not agree that the lines have to show the shield as covered -

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If you compare the empress to the same in the vieville and belgium patterns, which it is closer to anyway than the TdM, there seems to be a bag or something represented that does not depend upon its definition by the strange shape of the shield's edge. And the Noblet Empress seems more related to the Vieville and Belgium patterns than the TdM, 1 or 2.

Kwaw

Debra said:

Back to the Empress. Is there any reason historically to believe that this sort of Queen would be holding a bag of grain? She's not an "earth goddess"--she's the wife of the Emperor.

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She is an allegorical figure of an empire, state, nation ~ the domain, land or earth to which the Empire is married.

A bag of grain could be taken as emblematic of the function of a state to provide as that of the shield represents protection.

Such does not necessarily identify her as or with a goddess, but such an identification would not have been unusuall if it did occur: it was a standard means of honouring or elevating someone; also it was common for the genealogical trees of noble families to be traced back to greek or roman gods (as deified heroes) and heroes.

This empress also seems to fall into the Vieville and Belgian pattern that turned the Pope into Bacchus, so why not an Empress as Ceres?

Of course it is all supposition, we do not know that it is a bag of grain on her lap, or even if it is a bag at all; but there does seem to be something there. Not knowing what it is or why it is there does not make it 'not' there.

Kwaw

kwaw said:

Not knowing what it is or why it is there does not make it 'not' there.

Kwaw

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Now I must really lie down!

I must admit, I find the "bag of grain" hypothesis delightful. But suppose that blob wasn't colored brown but instead red or blue or yellow...then what would we "see" it as.

I just don't find the visual evidence compelling.

Here is the cary-yale Empress. The sceptre seems to be resting there rather than held: is her hand at rest too or is she holding something, the material of her dress or a bag for example?



kwaw

If you look at Van Eyck's "Arnolfini Marriage",which is contemporary with the Cary-Yale Deck, you will note that the dress is similar to kwaw's example and, therefore, very much the fashion for the time. I don't think there is a bag in that one (the card).... nor is she likely to be pregnant - note that the cloth in the painting and how it is folded....

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/eyck/arnolfini/arnolfini.jpg

Good point, BattyChick. Good point! Art history, yay!

Bat Chicken said:

If you look at Van Eyck's "Arnolfini Marriage",which is contemporary with the Cary-Yale Deck, you will note that the dress is similar to kwaw's example and, therefore, very much the fashion for the time. I don't think there is a bag in that one (the card).... nor is she likely to be pregnant - note that the cloth in the painting and how it is folded....

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/eyck/arnolfini/arnolfini.jpg

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Various examples, including the one above in relation to the sleeves, can be found in the cary-yale thread where the sleeves are also discussed from about post 20:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=62044&page=3&pp=10

Kwaw

From what I have been able to find, the sleeve style seen in the card is very common between 1440 and 1460 in France and Italy (in male clothing in England) - and it is worn in a variety of ways....