How to read today's Solar eclipse in my 7th house?

Minderwiz

Did Alexander the Great's astrologer rotate his chart before electing when to conquer the next territory?

No he didn't, Not once!.

The reason is that natal charts in the sense of being based on an Ascendant and a house system did not exist till about 300 years after Alexander died.

He might well have taken note of locally observed Astrological phenomena, as good or bad omens.

I've not come across any significant use of relocations until Morin in the seventeenth century and he used it for Solar Returns.

However I don't see this as invalidating the concept of relocation. You mention elections later on in your post and the Astrologer of a late Hellenistic or Medieval Alexander the Great will have used the location of the proposed event, rather than the birth place of the native. The most well known example is John Dee's election chart fot the Coronation of Elizabeth I, but I'm sure this had been standard practice for some centuries.


The real issue though is the one that you raised about the continuing validity of the natal chart when a person moves a significant distance from where they were born on a permanent or semi-permanent basis. That obviously begs a whole series of questions:

What gives a chart validity and how do we assess it?

How long does a person have to move for, before their original chart loses some of its validity?

How crucial are these factors in interpreting a chart(s)?

What is the process of interpreting a chart in relation to a future event. or more simply what is the process of chart interpretation?

We might come to different conclusions on those but I think we would agree that the death of 1,517 people in the Titanic disaster can't be explained solely in relation to their original natal charts; and that the chart for its sinking is a relevant factor.... of would we?
 

Etene

What gives a chart validity and how do we assess it?
I should hope accurate calculation from accurate information is enough. If not, then astrology's premise comes into doubt.

I'm curious if dadsnook2000's technique is valid, not because the nativity somehow "moves" with the native, but because whatever that chart may be, it is a consequence of the true natal chart. Turning it would not itself be an astrological effect, but it would work because it would be a "short cut" to a reflection of important factors in the progression of the natal chart at the time the native goes to that place.
(Titanic)
All of the people on the Titanic that died in the disaster did so in about the same place. Although that the Titanic sank should be featured in its own charts, all those aboard should have indicators of death at that time, or danger in travel upon water, etc. Otherwise, the natal chart is not a description of fate, but of what direction the native's free-will will seem to prefer. What if by relocating all of their charts, we would find such indicators emerge, such that it was by choosing to be on that boat at that time that led to their demise? This would introduce some free-will into astrological interpretation, that where you go affects your fate, although it would not help to analyze a free-will decision like which queue to stand in at the market to pass through fastest. That could be contrasted against an article in Considerations 13-1, p. 33, wherein an author compares nativities of students whom were killed, wounded, or escaped harm, in a school shooting. Since nearly all of the nativities and the school itself were no more than 1° of longitude apart, this case study eliminates much of the relocation question.
 

dadsnook2000

Answers for Etene

After 40+ years I must have done many thousands of charts. One that comes to mind in which relocation plays an important role was recently posted on my blog site about Yoko Ono, wife of John Lennon. About two weeks ago on www.ninthhouse.wordpress.com I had compared her natal chart for Tokyo, Japan with her New York City chart, relocating her natal chart to there. In NYC she had many aspects and chart activity, far more than in Tokyo. In effect, she was 'activated' in NYC.

I don't think progressed charts has anything directly to do with a relocation chart. The Earth is like a clock. Your natal chart is dependent upon date, time and place. Change one factor and you change the chart. It is simple calculation. How you interpret the changed chart is up to you. But, there is no necessary direct link to a progressed chart. If there was you would see every vacation, every business travel trip, etc.

While I won't answer for Minderwiz, I will note your comment about people dying on the Titanic. First, accidents happen. They may not show up in a natal chart. That would be because the natal chart is not an "end-all" chart. It is one of very many charts that an astrologer can use. I think that this month alone I have use about twenty different types of astrological charts, each requiring different calculation methods and interpretive approaches. From experience I can tell you that one type of chart will not indicate the mass deaths of many people, in each of their charts.

In my opinion, your assumption that the natal chart shows one's fate is something I can't buy into. It is a blueprint of strengths and weaknesses that you can grow into and grow from, ignoring some parts, emphasizing other parts. Each day of life brings opportunities to express natal patterns in differing ways and to adopt, change or ignore those ways.

Your reference to the school situation is no exception. Each natal chart MAY show each child's view or perception of those events. Each will see and experience the event quite differently in many ways, and in some similar ways. Each chart is different, each child is different, each experience (although sharing in a common event) will have differences.

Just some thoughts.
 

WolfSwan

This is a really interesting conversation to TRY to follow! I'm by no means an expert or familiar enough with the subject to add anything of particular interest other than to say in my experience my natal chart has always been extremely spot on when trying to understand astrological phenomenon and it's potential impact on me.

For example some of the big eclipses and supermoons last year were playing havoc in the areas of my life in which they were occuring based on my natal chart. The same seems to be happening this year.

I've had my progression chart read based on my birth location / time and I'm trying to see how accurate it really is. As for personality and strengths/weakness, major life events, so far my natal chart has been the most accurate - but that might be because I've never had a transitional chart done!
 

Minderwiz

I should hope accurate calculation from accurate information is enough. If not, then astrology's premise comes into doubt.

You might be interested in reading Geoffrey Cornelius' book The Moment of Astrology to look at the issues I raised in more depth. He looks at the issues surrounding the interpretation of symbols by the Astrologer, including interpretations based on partial or inaccurate data, which may still be usefult to some extent. Very often, indeed in the fairly large majority of cases, we are interpreting charts which are not accurate, in the sense of an exact birth time. Even states that record the time of birth on birth certificates are only accurate to a few minutes at best and may be significantly off. Many people only have an approximate time of birth, so are their charts invalid or do they have some validity or even complete valditity.

I think Dave made a good point on the Titanic. Natal charts don't reveal the moment of death. At best (and this is very debatable) A likely moment of death can be identified from a length of life calculation and that was the standard approach in the Hellenistic and Medieval period. It draws heavily on Primary Directions to identify high risk periods.

Morin is reputed to have correctly predicted his own death, but if you read Astrologia Gallica you will find he didn't use his natal chart but Primary Directions and he also identified several potential death points.

So at best Astrology is likely to identify high risk periods but these are not guaranteed to produce the event.

My point though was that the odds of so many people having a high risk moment at the same time is miniscule. We are moving from the realm of Natal Astrology to the realm of Mundane Astrology. Somewhere you'll find a post by me on the sinking of the Titanic, which makes use of it's launch timing. plust the charts for the events connected to its sinking. The Mundane analysis is superior to the natal.

The same can be true of war time events. I could have used the atom bombs and the populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (did the entire population have a risk event in their natal charts?) or the bombing of Dresden or Coventry or even the events of September 11, 2001.

Don't take natal charts to be the be all and end all of Astrology for the individual. They are subject to 'accidents' to use Dave's word.
 

Etene

Many people only have an approximate time of birth, so are their charts invalid or do they have some validity or even complete valditity.
There is some point at which "inaccurate" becomes "invalid," but it is by degrees. "Invalid" I'd save for when the chart can make the astrologer reach wrong conclusions, rather than unconfident ones that can be reasonably tested. I recall Brennan in his podcast series trying two ascendant signs when considering Edward Snowden's chart because of data uncertainty. It's valid but requires a caveat.
Morin is reputed to have correctly predicted his own death, but if you read Astrologia Gallica you will find he didn't use his natal chart but Primary Directions and he also identified several potential death points.
I haven't found a translation of Gallica. Only comments that one of the middle chapters was translated to English at some point. Has the book been recently recovered and translated? Houlding has it listed on her text references page, but the link is dead and it was probably in the original French, which is beyond me.
My point though was that the odds of so many people having a high risk moment at the same time is miniscule.
If astrology is reduced to a matter of chance, then it loses its reason. We have plenty of chance-based systems, like Tarot and rune casting, that seem to work. Being a mathematical system that is free of chance in and of itself, I don't like the idea of claiming the system to be describing events but then dismissing details of the events as chance merely because there will be much variation in the charts of persons who share an incident, such as a boat's sinking. Having given it further thought, I could not demand that every person involved in a disaster have a clear sign of death, but lacking one would need to be a consequence of an unwise free-will decision, such as accepting a ticket to ride the Titanic with a friend who does have warning of misadventure, thus tying their fates.
We are moving from the realm of Natal Astrology to the realm of Mundane Astrology.
Perhaps these realms should not be held so far apart. If relocating a natal chart yields useful information then location must be part of the formula, rather than a benign stage upon which our lives perform.
 

Minderwiz

There is some point at which "inaccurate" becomes "invalid," but it is by degrees. "Invalid" I'd save for when the chart can make the astrologer reach wrong conclusions, rather than unconfident ones that can be reasonably tested. I recall Brennan in his podcast series trying two ascendant signs when considering Edward Snowden's chart because of data uncertainty. It's valid but requires a caveat.


So what is a 'right' conclusion and what is a wrong one. Suppose one Astrologer reaches a 'right' conclusion from a chart but another astrologer reaches a 'wrong' conclusion from a chart? Is the chart both valid and invalid?

I think we would agree that what I've cited above is possibly a case of a 'good' Astrologer versus a 'poor' one. But even a good Astrologer can make mistakes. I have done so and Dave has done so and probably you have done so too. It's possible to draw wrong conclusions from 'accurate' charts and to draw 'right' conclusions from a partly accurate one.

Astrology isn't a question of just doing the maths and following clear rules, though the Astrological Association of Great Britain would argue that it is. The Astrologer adds a major contribution to a reading and two very competent Astrologers might pick out very different points, both of which might be true.

I'll stop at that point because it begs the question of what is 'true' here. Chris Brennan in one of his talks makes a point that many clients deny that what he's told them is true but a lengthy explanation lead sot an 'Oh yes, you're right' moment. Some things might well be verified by witness evidence or other recorded observations but psychological attributions are notoriously difficult to validate. And you will find psychological assesments in Astrology at all stages of its history.





Etene said:
I haven't found a translation of Gallica. Only comments that one of the middle chapters was translated to English at some point. Has the book been recently recovered and translated? Houlding has it listed on her text references page, but the link is dead and it was probably in the original French, which is beyond me.

I have books 18 (strength of the planets; 21(Interpreting charts); 22 (Directions; 23 Revolutions; and 24 (Transits and Progressions). All in English, and that's not the entire set of English translations available.

Incidentally Morin wrote in Latin but my Latin is pot, so access to the original wouldn't do me any good LOL.

Etene said:
If astrology is reduced to a matter of chance, then it loses its reason. We have plenty of chance-based systems, like Tarot and rune casting, that seem to work. Being a mathematical system that is free of chance in and of itself, I don't like the idea of claiming the system to be describing events but then dismissing details of the events as chance merely because there will be much variation in the charts of persons who share an incident, such as a boat's sinking. Having given it further thought, I could not demand that every person involved in a disaster have a clear sign of death, but lacking one would need to be a consequence of an unwise free-will decision, such as accepting a ticket to ride the Titanic with a friend who does have warning of misadventure, thus tying their fates.

Life is not a mathematical precise activity, neither is existence. There is some randomness or uncertainty in everything. If there were not you would be a pre-programmed robot. But there's a difference between randomness and purely random. There are patterns which are mathematically predictable but within a relatively small margin of error.

There's no complete opposition between free will and fate, we make decisions within the context of physical, social, physiological, and psychological constraints Much of what we do is predicatable in terms of en masse, and individually but not everything is. Astrology follows the nature of the universe.

We could look at the microcosm of the Titanic disaster, factors relating to individual decisions to sail or not to sail, but the Astrology of the ship strongly suggests a high risk factor on this voyage'


Etene said:
Perhaps these realms should not be held so far apart. If relocating a natal chart yields useful information then location must be part of the formula, rather than a benign stage upon which our lives perform.

Whilst Mundane Astrology is a distinct branch, and seen by many Astrologers in the past as being the summit of the science. It's the macrocosm to Natal Astrology's microcosm. It looks as humans acting en masse, rather than individually. Clearly the two are related but there are times when looking at the macrocosm makes it much easier to understand what is going on.
 

dadsnook2000

And, to be-labor a point . . .

And this leads me to restate a point made earlier. There are many types of charts and techniques for using those charts.

The NATAL chart is often cited as representing our 'potential' and character. Not many say that it represents our fate. Perhaps a Saturn-return might be used by some to portray one's possible fate . . . although I wouldn't say that.

What is a Secondary PROGRESSION chart for? How is it used differently from a SOLAR ARC DIRECTED chart? How about a Solar Return, a Lunar Return. How does a Lunar Return differ from a Moon-to-natal-Sun Return? There are many specialized charts, when should any of them be used?

The same is true of house systems or the omission of houses. What do you use when? There is much that can be learned within astrology, much that should be unlearned, also, I expect.

Then, there is the manner in which one goes about interpreting a chart. I've seen many approach a Solar Return just the same as they would a natal chart. Not a clue in ther head about the basic fundamentals behind each chart. An open mind, an inquiring mind is what serves us best. If we stick to one approach until we understand its capabilities and limitations . . . before going on to other charts or chart embellishments, then we serve ourselves best.