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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Hi, Ronia. Yes I know your Jupiter is retrograde but if I have got this correct, Schmidt is classifying indicators of fitness, energy and completion in relation to the Horizon (the houses or places) the zodiac (the signs) or the Lights (Sun and Moon) on a one by one basis. So whilst Jupiter's retrograde motion is indeed something of a debility when it comes to it's energy relative to the Lights (to the Sun specifically), when it comes to the section on completion relative to the the horizon, it scores highly because it is angular to the Lot of Fortune'

Incidentally, whilst it is an indicator of completeness relative to the Horizon, it's not necessarily an indicator that you will like what is completed! Being opposed to the Lot and retrograde, it's delivery might not always be associated with good luck, despite it being a benefic.

We should therefore end up with a 3x3 grid to draw some conclusions from and attempt to synthesise how well the planet is doing overall. This certainly has made me rethink quite a bit about the assessment of a planet and your Saturn comes out much better than it's eighth house position would indicate. It might still have problems but not as much as a one dimensional examination would indicate.

I have to stress that this is Schmidt's take on it as interpreted by Curtis Manwaring the developer of Delphic Oracle, but it does not seem to be challenged as being incorrect. In practice individual writers mention some or many of these factors but not in the form of a systematic analysis of a chart.
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PNA reading for Ana - Part 1


PNA Reading for Ana

Ana's chart has Sagittarius rising but the Ascemdamt is near the end of the sign. One thing to keep an eye on then, through the various stages is whether Capricorn fits better with your experience of Life. There are no planets in Sagittarius and its ruler Jupiter is placed in Scorpio, which is the natal twelfth place. So like Ronia you have an Ascendant ruler that is not configured to the Ascendant. Technically this is called 'Aversion' but it doesn't mean the ruler doesn't like the Ascendant, it means it's view is averted from the Ascendant.

Ana's chart is also challenging (for me) on another dimension. The Sun is in early Capricorn. This makes it difficult to call as to sect. The Sun's influence spreads 15 degrees either side of the Sun (this was the figure used by Hellenisitic Astrologers) and so dawn was breaking when Ana was born, but the Sun had not fully risen. Delphic Oracle, though classes it as a nocturnal birth with the Moon as the sect light. And I'll work on that. It will be really interesting to see if the Sun's proximity to the horizon has any significance later on, which will lead to a revision of that sect allocation.

So with the sect determined at least pro temp, I'll look at Jupiter and it's ruler.

Jupiter

Jupiter is not only the ruler of the Ascendant, he's the ruler of the Lot of Fortune which lies in Sagittarius, and that rulership would not change, even if the Ascendant was eventually revised. Jupiter is the out of sect benefic, so might raise additional issues. as well as the aversion to the Ascendant. Jupiter's principles are to command and stabilise, so again it will be interesting to see if and how these themes materialise in Ana's life.

Being in a cadent house (or technically a place of decline). According to Schmidt, this means that whatever Jupiter is there to signify for the native, might end up being deflected away in some way. Jupiter is however Direct and rising, ( it can be seen in the sky in the East just before sunrise). It is in none of it's dignities or the dignities of one of it's sectmates (Sun and Saturn) Indeed the only planet with dignity in the place of Jupiter is Mars, by sign, triplicity, bounds and face. Mars is a malefic but it's the malefic of sect and so should be better behaved than it would be in a diurnal chart. Jupiter's energy levels are not shown as high through its placement by sign, house and phase relationship to the Sun. This will affect it's ability to complete it's 'agenda' for Ana. Being averse to the Ascendant also means it's averse to the Lot of Fortune, which it rules. strategies to maximise 'luck' may therefore be difficult to execute. The Moon though is applying to Jupiter, so there's at least something going for it, and being is a fixed sign, whatever is achieved will last.

Jupiter is configured to the Sun and Mercury by sextile and to the Moon and Venus by square. In both cases these configurations are to the Left (in the direction of signs) from Jupiter. Jupiter is averse to Saturn and Mars and as Mars is Jupiter's ruler this is not particularly desirabilia, even a square or opposition would indicate the two are connected.



Mars

Mars is Jupiter's ruler and so is an important planet in the chart. Mars is in Sect, and placed near the MC in the eleventh House of the Good Spirit.

In terms of 'fitness' Mars scores reasonably well on all three reference points. It is in a succedent house (middling position relative to the horizon), is in the place of a sectmate (Venus) despite being in Detriment and is Direct and Rising (it rose in the East before sunrise) The first two are not very strong but are by no means bad, the third is a strong indicator. Overall Mars' fitness is average to just above average.

In terms of 'energy' Mars scores highly relative to the Horizon as it's in an angular house of a quadrant house chart. However it is not in an active phase relative to the Sun (no stations or helical risings in the week either side of Ana's birth) and it's not in an energetic sign placement as it's in a 'Foreign Trigon' - that is it's not in one of the Triplicities where Mars has rulership, such as Water or Fire. So Mars appears to be again just a little above average.

In terms of 'completion' Mars is in a succedent sign relative to the Lot of Fortune, has the Moon applying by trine and is in a Tropical or Cardinal sign. Being succedent to the Lot means that completion will be 'reflected back' at some future stage, i.e. the effects are not immediate. The application of the Moon does suggest a shorter timescale and being in a Cardinal sign suggest that things can easily be started but may not be followed through. This is something of a mixed bag The Moon's application suggesting that any effects will be long lasting, the Cardinal placing that things may start quickly but not necessarily followed through and being succedent relative to the Lot, suggests that it might be some time before the effects are felt. It will be interesting to see how Mars has affected you up to now.
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Minderwiz 
PNA Reading for Ana - Part 2


PNA Reading forAna - 2

The remaining planets are:

Moon

The Moon is the sect Light. She is placed in Aquarius in the third House, so she is configured to the Ascendant. She is also conjunct Venus is just outside the range for 'Adhering' (3 degrees) but this is still a close relationship. She is also square Jupiter and trines both Saturn and Mars. The trine to Mars is within the 3 degree range but the configuration to Saturn may cause some issues as it is the dominant planet in terms of zodiacal placement (to the right of the Moon) and is the out of sect malefic.

In terms of 'fitness' she is in a cadent house (the third) but is rising and in the place of a sectmate (Mercury is a nocturnal planet in this chart). Overall this is around average. In terms of energy she is not goaded or angular and she's in a Foreign Trigon (Air) so the energy level is average or below. In terms of Completion, she's in a cadent house relative to the Lot of Fortune (Low completion) and she's in a fixed sign (will see things through) so again about average.

Venus

Venus is also in the third House (Place) conjunct the Moon (as noted above) She therefore shares the same configurations to the Ascendant, Jupiter, Saturn and Mars.

In terms of Fitness her situation is the same asthat of the Moon. The only differences relate in Energy and Completeness are her phase relative to the Sun, she is Direct and rising but there was a change of phase relative to the Sun, Venus stationed Retrograde two days later and so is classed as energetic here. The difference in terms of Completion is that the Moon is applying to Venus. So she is a little bit more energetic than the Moon and a bit more inclined to complete.

Mercury

In this chart Mercury is treated as a nocturnal planet. Mercury is placed in Capricorn in the second House. Mercury is therefore averse to the Ascendant. Mercury is configured to Jupiter by sextile and to Saturn and Mars by square. None of these configurations is within 3 degrees, so all three planets are stronger than Mars in terms of the configurations.

In terms of fitness, Mercury is in a succedent House, is Direct and Rising and in the place of a Sectmate (Capricorn is the exaltation of Mars). So just above average. In terms of Energy, Mercury is 'goaded' or 'enthusiastic' as in a quadrant house chart he's in the first, though across the sign boundary, but there's no high energy relative to the Lights and he's in a Foreign Trigon - Mercury is not one of the Triplicity Lords for Earth. So Energy levels seem to be below average. In terms of Completeness, he's in a succedent house relative to Fortune, but is separated from the Moon and is in a Cardinal Sign (good at initiating but no staying power). Here Mercury looks to be below average.

Sun

The Sun is the out of sect Light. Like Mercury, the Sun is in the second House and so has the same configurations as Mercury. The main difference being that the Sun is within three degrees of Jupiter and Mars, and so is more able to resist Mars. Most of Mercury's characteristics hold for the Sun, with the obvious exception of a phase relationship with the Sun. Being out of sect he's qualitatively 'weaker'

Saturn

Saturn is the out of sect malefic in this chart. Saturn is placed along with Mars in the eleventh House. Saturn's configurations have been dealt with above when considering the other planets but perhaps the key thing to emphasise is that he is configured to the Ascendant.

In terms of fitness Saturn is in a succeedent sign, is Direct and Rising and is in one of his own places (exalted in Libra), so above average fitness. In terms of energy Saturn is again angular in a quadrant house chart, and whilst having no phase relationship changes with the Sun is in his own Trigon (Saturn is a Triplicity Lord for the Air triplicity). So again above average in energy. On completeness, Saturn is succeedent to the Lot of Fortune but separated from the Moon and in a Cardinal sign. There's little here to suggest staying power. So Saturn may well be active and energetic but there are not likely to be lasting effects from him.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Hi, Ronia. Yes I know your Jupiter is retrograde but if I have got this correct, Schmidt is classifying indicators of fitness, energy and completion in relation to the Horizon (the houses or places) the zodiac (the signs) or the Lights (Sun and Moon) on a one by one basis. So whilst Jupiter's retrograde motion is indeed something of a debility when it comes to it's energy relative to the Lights (to the Sun specifically), when it comes to the section on completion relative to the the horizon, it scores highly because it is angular to the Lot of Fortune'

Incidentally, whilst it is an indicator of completeness relative to the Horizon, it's not necessarily an indicator that you will like what is completed! Being opposed to the Lot and retrograde, it's delivery might not always be associated with good luck, despite it being a benefic.

We should therefore end up with a 3x3 grid to draw some conclusions from and attempt to synthesise how well the planet is doing overall. This certainly has made me rethink quite a bit about the assessment of a planet and your Saturn comes out much better than it's eighth house position would indicate. It might still have problems but not as much as a one dimensional examination would indicate.

I have to stress that this is Schmidt's take on it as interpreted by Curtis Manwaring the developer of Delphic Oracle, but it does not seem to be challenged as being incorrect. In practice individual writers mention some or many of these factors but not in the form of a systematic analysis of a chart.
I admit I'm lost here. I'll just go back and read it all from the beginning because I got confused with all the names and different approaches. Looks like a complicated job this one.
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This has been SO interesting, Minderwiz! I've always been curious about Hellenistic astrology, mostly because I always enjoy Chris Brennan's writings and podcasts, but I know very little about it. I didn't realize it was quite so different than the Arabic/Medieval or Lillian astrology that I mostly associate with the "traditional" camp.

The keywords for the planets, as well as the emphasis on sect and the Lot of Fortune are particularly unfamiliar. I'm finding this thread fascinating, and am really looking forward to seeing how valuable you find the techniques to be for prediction. I'm also curious to read more about Ronia's chart because I always find the idea of having a malefic planet as a chart ruler to be an odd idea, and I'm not sure what the best case scenario is supposed to be (Mars rules my ascendant, and it's rather "strong" as it's in its own sign in the first.)

So if I'm getting the gist of all of this so far, I'm assuming that the "agenda" of the various planets will be determined by the houses they rule, then their own planetary keyword flair will be applied to how they handle those affairs, and their ability to handle them effectively is what all of this "fitness" and "completion" etc. is showing?

How are you finding the Delphic Oracle software? I tried to install a trial of the low-end software that they have a while back (Timaeus or something similar?) using Virtual Windows on my Mac, but kept getting an error about missing files.

Lastly, if you need or want another "sitter" for your practice, I'd be happy to offer up my birth info. It's all listed here in the Birth Data thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
I admit I'm lost here. I'll just go back and read it all from the beginning because I got confused with all the names and different approaches. Looks like a complicated job this one.
It was something I had to write out to actually begin to understand what was going on. So I'm not surprised you're lost So let me try again now that I think I understand what the approach is (and I stress this is Schmidt via Curtis Manwaring's Delphic Oracle).

The aim of PNA is to assess three things,

The fitness of the planet as an actor or agent in the nativity - basically is it in a position to be effective.

Secondly, to assess its energy levels - it might be fit to 'act' but has it the energy or 'will' to act. Or perhaps better put as can we expect it to 'try and do something'

Thirdly,given it's position and energy level, is it likely to lead to something lasting. Will we know it's been there in our lives.

Those appear to be the key aims.

Each one of these three is broken down into a further three fold sub-division. These are the three reference points for judgement. The first two are ones that are recognised by all Astrologers, though not in every detail that's supplied. These two are the House placement of the planet (that is relative to the Horizon) and it's sign placement (that is relative to the zodiac), Any basic introductory text will cover these two but I repeat, the Hellenistic approach has elements that are no longer in play, though it has ones that we do still use.

The last subdivision is one that is not used today and that is relative to the Lights. This brings in the concept of Sect but also it stresses the role of the Sun and Moon as the two principle bodies in Astrology. This is also one of the things that differentiates modern from Traditional. Modern writers treat the Moon as clearly the second in command at best, whereas the tradition sees a partnership. The Moon has primacy in terms of what happens here on Earth. The Sun's role is a more general or remote one of organising what goes on above the Moon (that is the planetary spheres). Those actions are mediated to Earth through the agency of the Moon.

I hope my second attempt makes more sense. I'm trying to translate into common terms what is expressed in uncommon terminology and one that I'm only slowly getting to grips with.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalliope View Post
This has been SO interesting, Minderwiz! I've always been curious about Hellenistic astrology, mostly because I always enjoy Chris Brennan's writings and podcasts, but I know very little about it. I didn't realize it was quite so different than the Arabic/Medieval or Lillian astrology that I mostly associate with the "traditional" camp.

The keywords for the planets, as well as the emphasis on sect and the Lot of Fortune are particularly unfamiliar. I'm finding this thread fascinating, and am really looking forward to seeing how valuable you find the techniques to be for prediction. I'm also curious to read more about Ronia's chart because I always find the idea of having a malefic planet as a chart ruler to be an odd idea, and I'm not sure what the best case scenario is supposed to be (Mars rules my ascendant, and it's rather "strong" as it's in its own sign in the first.)

So if I'm getting the gist of all of this so far, I'm assuming that the "agenda" of the various planets will be determined by the houses they rule, then their own planetary keyword flair will be applied to how they handle those affairs, and their ability to handle them effectively is what all of this "fitness" and "completion" etc. is showing?

How are you finding the Delphic Oracle software? I tried to install a trial of the low-end software that they have a while back (Timaeus or something similar?) using Virtual Windows on my Mac, but kept getting an error about missing files.

Lastly, if you need or want another "sitter" for your practice, I'd be happy to offer up my birth info. It's all listed here in the Birth Data thread.
Thanks kalliope. I must admit I'm finding it a challenge, which is why I'm running the thread - it forces me to try and get to grips with the concepts. If I can't explain it to someone else the chances are that I don't really inderstand it myself. Now that might require more than one go but it's a good challenge.

Yes it is different from the Arab and Medieval apporaches and indeed Robert Schmidt, who runs Project Hindsight argues that we must cast out all our preconception about Astrology before trying it. So he refers to Helios and Selene, instead of Sun and Moon and talks of Images rather the Signs because he thinks it's a better translation of the Greek. Luckily Chris Brennan is not so purist in his approach so I can still call Capricorn, Capricorn and not the Goat Horns.

Delphic Oracle has a large learning curve but does have some excelent features, especially relating to predictive methods. It's also got a very good dynamic charting function so a chart can be run forward or backwards in time by anything from a minute to a year. And Time Lord periods can easily be checked against transits, or secondary progressions.

That being said, I got it at half price, which is on offer till the new version comes out. It's just about worth it, especially as there's no other program that does Hellenistic Astrology but I don't think I would have bought it at full price.

Thanks for your details. What I'll do is take Ronia and Ana through the Second stage and then return to you and spiraling who has also volunteered as a guinea pig. That will be good because I should be able to do a clearer run through and hone my skills, rather than feel my way.
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Bonification and Maltreatment


The last thing that is done in the PNA approach is to check for factors which either indicate a planet will be a more positive indicator than we might expect either in terms of its natural signification or in terms of the areas of life it is connected with. Alternatively a less positive, or debilitated and inhibited in their expression might be indicated. These are termed Bonification and Maltreatment respectively

Modern Astrology will do this by looking at aspects such as trines and sextiles for a more positive outcome or squares and oppositions for a less positive outcome, coupled with the nature of the aspecting planets and the house placement of the planet under consideration. Hellenistic Astrology shares this approach but has additional considerations.

So for Bonafication we would consider

Whether the planet is aspected by Venus or Jupiter by sextile or trine (originally this might have been restricted to Venus by sextile and Jupiter by Trine, as these are the natural aspects associated with them.

For Maltreatment we would consider

Whether the planet is aspected by Mars or Saturn by square or opposition (again originally it was probably Mars by square and Saturn by opposition).

In both cases we would also consider whether the aspect or configuration comes from the right side or the left side, as planets earlier in the zodiac have a superior position. So Mars in Leo squaring Mercury in Scorpio is a stronger maltreatment than reversing the sign positions of these two planets.

In both cases we would consider the Sect of the chart. Bonification for Jupiter in a day chart or Venus in a night chart is stronger than from Venus in a day chart and from Jupiter in a night chart. Bonification by the benefic is sect is stronger. Maltreatment by the malefic out of sect is worse.

Porphyry has a more advance scheme for Maltreatment.

A ray hurled by a Malefic with a less than 3 degree orb (this is an aspect from the Left, e.g. from Mars in Scorpio at 12 degrees to Mercury in Leo at 15 degrees.

Being enclosed by two malefics, e.g. Mars at 10 degrees Leo, Mercury at 15 degrees and Saturn at 20 degrees with no other planet involved. Enclosure or containment is still used. One key issue is whether it can cross sign boundaries and the answer to that seems to be yes.

Applying to a conjunction with a malefic

Applying to an opposition with a malefic

Being overcome by a malefic (the condition mentioned earlier of a square from the right)

Being ruled by a malefic that is itself badly placed in the chart and not in good condition. The bad places are the sixth, eighth and twelfth and in some texts the second (because it is averse to the Ascendant). Poor condition might include such things as being retrograde, under the beams, or without essential dignity.

It's easy to derive conditions for bonification from this by substituting benefic for malefic, sextile and trine for square and opposition and have the benefic in a good place (anywhere but the 4 places mentioned above) and in good condition, e.g. Direct, fast, in their own dignity.

Up to now we haven't really met those conditions so it's worth mentioning them at this stage.

Incidentally, enclosure can mean something that would not be recognised by a Modern Astrologer, It can be via aspect. Thus Mercury in Leo 15 degrees could be enclosed by Mars in Taurus at 5 degrees and Saturn in Scorpio at 12 degrees The two malefics cast hard aspects in front and behind Mercury The enclosure would be broken if say Jupiter was at 6 degrees Aries, because he would cast his aspect between Mercury and the square from Mars. It's worth checking for enclosure and that's something I'll be using when it comes up in the future.
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The Joys


These are essentially sect related

The Sun joys in the ninth house (the House of God)

Jupiter joys in the eleventh house (the House of the Good Spirit)

Saturn joys in the twelfth house (the House of the Bad Spirit)

All three are diurnal planets and all three joy in houses above the horizon.

The Moon joys in the third house (The House of the Goddess)

Venus joys in the fifth house (The House of Good Fortune)

Mars joys in the sixth house (the House of Bad Fortune)

All three planets are nocturnal and all three joy below the horizon.

Mercury joys in the first house (The Helm) which is where Heaven and Earth meet and Mercury can either be nocturnal or diurnal.

So we could see being in its joy a form of bonification and indeed being in the sect of the time (for example Jupiter in a day chart or Mars in a night chart) would be a form of bonification, though a qualitative one rather than a quantitative one.

Very weak joy could come from a diurnal planet being in a day chart and above the horizon and/or being in a diurnal sign (Fire or Air). For a nocturnal chart noctural planets joy above the horizon and/or in nocturnal signs (Earth or Water). These last two conditions became much stronger in Arab and Medieval Astrology. For Hellenisitc Astrology treat them as small positives or small negatives if planets are wrongly placed. It's not a big deal by any means and if you simply keep to classifying a planet as being either in or out of sect for the chart, that's enough.
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Minderwiz 

I'll now try and do the Universal Hermetic Analysis for Ronia and then Ana and after that I'll return and do the PNA for spiraling and kalliope. This may take several days on and off because it's the other area I'm not used to doing in a Hellenistic framework. I think I will be much more at home with the Stage 3 and Stage 4 material.
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