Where did Waite get these meanings?

caridwen

What I meant by contradictory is that he includes several different divintory meanings from different sources, traditions, that are not same. Which gets confusing.

In an upright meaning he will say it is this (positive meaning) then in the same breathe for an upright meaning (negative meaning) so your left scrating your head, is it a good card meaning or a bad card meaning.

Oh I'm so confused now forget.

I too much work for me to post, really, it take me an hour trying to explain myself. what take you 5 min to type take me 30 mins. it gets fustrating.

I am have difficulties, I have been struggling for months, main struggle is have have Memory problems. I need things to be simple, cause I am simple minded.

I can only reiterate what has already been said. The questions you are asking are really good and thought provoking.

There are distinct reasons why the PKT is so difficult to read and that has already been said here. Waite was a member of several secret societies. He was a Freemason and a member of the Golden Dawn. Both these societies are sworn to secrecy. As has been mentioned here, he was trying to explain information that he was not allowed to talk about so the PKT is very unclear and many believe deliberately so. It is hardly surprising that you are confused.
 

La Force

deleted double post
 

La Force

Sorry - Original Poster is OP so that is you:)

In my opinion your question was simple may I reiterate? Was there a definitive source to the meanings given in the PKT for the Minors? Is that the correct question or am I wrong:p

I haven't read your whole post yet, but I will answer this

One step at a time.

My question was mainly about the cartomancy meaning at the back of the book pages 186 - 195

These meaning have no references to sources in the bibliography

Nor do these meanings show up in books / websites that are available at this time (2014)

Then I noticed he was also including in his minor acrana, other meanings from other sources.

Some of which (for same card) contradict the meaning.

Then noticed some of the images like the 7 of Swords (as already mentioned) the meanings don't fit the card design.

So all in all you have the Minor arcana, leaving the person trying to learn to remember all confused.

My brain is on overload, draws blank. bbl when my head can think. it happens my brain will just stop working, I have no control over it, and I get tired very easily. sorry
 

La Force

OP is the original post in a thread.

I think most of the conversation is between ceridwen and others. It often happens that the original post can open up technical topics which others are interested in. It means that you ask good questions.

Don't let it worry you. :) I think your questions have already been answered.

okay, Thanks, and Yes
 

auntie

Waite uses the Book T titles for the Minors - and if you look at the illustrations Pixie did, all of them are in line with an interpretation of those titles (based on decans, yes, but if you're not into astrology, you can just use the titles). I think the extra or additional meanings that Waite gives are from cartomancy - meaning not just playing cards, but earlier use of Tarot for fortune-telling, sometimes referred to as "Gypsy," which would have used Marseille cards, or Tarocchi (which were game decks of the time), or the smaller game decks (32 and 36 card piquet/Lenormand) and tend toward more mundane every day interpretations. I think the frustration people feel is in wanting to be told: "this card definitely means this." It's a symbol system which different cultures read differently and has evolved over time. If you think of it as a book and the different card meanings as interpretations, I think it's easier to digest, and then you pick and choose what's right for you. I do think many people choose Marseille over RWS for the reasons you're expressing, and many take it a step further and read with Majors only, and then the Majors take on mundane meanings. The cards are very versatile that way. But if you want to use the RWS "traditionally" - stick with the titles for the Minors, and don't worry about Waite's additional cartomantic meanings. He was a scholar, he's just being thorough. I do think that material is meant more as a footnote for people who were interested. If they don't make sense to you, don't use them. As far as your original question: "where did he get them?" - I think it's safe to assume he's talking about fortune-telling tradition, he may have read them or learned them along the way (his paper was on the French system, right? So probably wherever he learned that), but does it matter? Those traditions were largely word-of-mouth. Where it was printed it was usually just a commercial interpretation by card companies to produce Victorian parlor games as spiritualism became popular, and then those meanings became traditional, since they were available, and in print.
 

ravenest

What I meant by contradictory is that he includes several different divintory meanings from different sources, traditions, that are not same. Which gets confusing.

Okay. Yes I see that and I can see the way that can confuse some. I dont see it as ; this means what the card means. I see it as a list or history of meanings, background information. After a while, when one accrues more and more information about cards, one comes to conclusions and developments about them, usually modified by reading experience as well. One might then choose to regard or disregard some of those meanings.

In an upright meaning he will say it is this (positive meaning) then in the same breathe for an upright meaning (negative meaning) so your left scrating your head, is it a good card meaning or a bad card meaning.

In my case I only read upright, so I see a card how it relates to other cards in aspect. If well aspected, or placed, in a reading the 'good' qualities of the card come out, if badly aspected then the 'bad' qualities come out. If I just explain the card by itself then , yes it can seem confusing as it has both good and bad potentials within the card.
 

ravenest

And to clear up further mis-information (and hopefully some of La Force's confusion ... as she didnt seem confused at the beginning of this thread ... only at Waite , which IMO is totally understandable as there are MANY threads here trying to decipher what Waite was on about. )

1. Ignore the :p (people do that sometimes)

2. The Book of Thoth is NOT by Mathers, it is by Crowley.

3. Book T was the primary source for Waite and Crowley - so the meanings and titles in it cant be 'more Thoth than Waite' .

4. Usage of the planets in annoting the minor cards and decans has not been clearly defined as to purpose (see other threads) ... so I would not recommend trying to work out minors meanings from what cards are associated with what planets ... one is better off looking at the sign a minor is attributed to.

5. Opinions on tarot, like minor card meanings are often varied and can come from a wide range of sources including 'intuition' .... and may just be plain wrong.
 

caridwen

And to clear up further mis-information (and hopefully some of La Force's confusion ... as she didnt seem confused at the beginning of this thread ... only at Waite , which IMO is totally understandable as there are MANY threads here trying to decipher what Waite was on about. )

1. Ignore the :p (people do that sometimes)

2. The Book of Thoth is NOT by Mathers, it is by Crowley.

3. Book T was the primary source for Waite and Crowley - so the meanings and titles in it cant be 'more Thoth than Waite' .

4. Usage of the planets in annoting the minor cards and decans has not been clearly defined as to purpose (see other threads) ... so I would not recommend trying to work out minors meanings from what cards are associated with what planets ... one is better off looking at the sign a minor is attributed to.

5. Opinions on tarot, like minor card meanings are often varied and can come from a wide range of sources including 'intuition' .... and may just be plain wrong.

I'm not sure if you are deliberately trolling but it would really help matters if you quoted the post you are referring to.
 

Richard

......The Book of Thoth is by Mathers who was also a scholar at the time of Waite. I am a HUGE fan of Mathers :D........
I'm a fan of Mathers too, but the true author of The Book of Thoth was anything but a fan. Crowley and Mathers, at one point, actually engaged in magical warfare against each other, using demons and vampires and stuff. In the novel Moonchild by Crowley, the villains were Arthwaite (A.E. Waite) and SRMD (S.L. MacGregor Mathers). (In real life, when Mathers joined the Rosicrucian society S.R.I.A., he adopted the motto SRMD, an acronym for the Gaelic "S Rioghail Mo Dhream," which means "Royal is my race.")

I'm glad you reminded me of the Book of Thoth, because the sections on the pips are also relevant to the "villain's" deck, the RWS. Among other things, it explains things like why the 5s are generally unpleasant, why the Swords seem to get progressively worse from Ace to 10. It explains a lot of things concerning the pips about which people often have questions, and the explanations are relevant for the Waite, since the Thoth and Waite decks are based on the same model of the Tree of Life.
 

caridwen

I'm a fan of Mathers too, but the true author of The Book of Thoth was anything but a fan. Crowley and Mathers, at one point, actually engaged in magical warfare against each other, using demons and vampires and stuff. In the novel Moonchild by Crowley, the villains were Arthwaite (A.E. Waite) and SRMD (S.L. MacGregor Mathers). (In real life, when Mathers joined the Rocrucian society S.R.I.A., he adopted the motto SRMD, an acronym for the Gaelic "S Rioghail Mo Dhream," which means "Royal is my race.")

I'm glad you reminded me of the Book of Thoth, because the sections on the pips are also relevant to the "villain's" deck, the RWS. Among other things, it explains things like why the 5s are generally unpleasant, why the Swords seem to get progressively worse from Ace to 10. It explains a lot of things concerning the pips about which people often have questions, and the explanations are relevant for the Waite, since the Thoth and Waite decks are based on the same model of the Tree of Life.

Yeah I went back and added a footnote as I said that Mathers wrote the BoT when in fact I meant Book T.

As far as I'm aware, both decks are based on the Book T attributions. Crowley managed to make the Minors more in tune with the Kabbalah.

I'd like to learn more about the Fives though - could you explain more?:)