The Four Worlds/The Four Suits - the Order

Rosanne

Thanks for the Download advice Kwaw.
I am the epitome of a Dodo bird, I need to get my worms in a row, before digesting.
Worms in the nicest sense of course.
~Rosanne
 

kwaw

treedog said:
A big question for me right now is: Are the assignments and postions of the Hebrew letters (Aleph, Beth, Gimmel, etc.) on the Tree of Life values that can changed? Is the ToL available for re-structuring in that way?
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Well, with the numerous variations many different esoteric/occult/(c.q.k)abbalistic schools claim as authentic (which presumably means 'work') the obvious answer would seem to be 'yes' (at least to an extent, and without resorting to calling any of them liars or fraudsters, as they are prone to call each other).

To understand why each may indeed be in their own way correct it is best to resort to an older model of the 10 sefirah and 22 paths (and one which is described in the SY itself). Imagine 10 concentric circles with 22 lines radiating from the center.* Modeled this way you will see that each line intersects with each circle (i.e., each and every letter/path is connected to each and every sefirah).

These 220 (22x10) intersections plus the center point are known as the '221 gates' (231 gates in some SY manuscripts, based on pairing the 22 letters with each other rather than the intersections of paths and circles - n(n-1)/2 where n is 22 = 231).

Kwaw
* If you put the 22 letters in a circle and draw a line each to the other (a to b, a to g, a to d... b to g, b to d, and so on), the tangents of the lines form 10 circles: see the diagram in Kaplan's SY.
 

kwaw

kwaw said:
These 220 (22x10) intersections are known as the '220 gates' (not to be confused with the 231 gates formed by pairing the 22 letters with each other).
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By chance the number of pips in the four suits 1-10 also equals 220.

Most esoteric schools allocate the pip cards to the sefirah according to their number (all aces to keter, all 2's to Chokmah, etc.). However, if you follow old tarot gaming rules (two suits rank low to high, 2 high to low), then you can model them neatly in a 22x10 table:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t212/kwaw/PipsTable.jpg

B= Batons
C = Cups
S = Swords
D = Deniers

Reading across you will see :

First row - 10 'b's, 1 c, 10 S's and 1 d = Keter (10 Batons, Ace of Cups, 10 Swords, Ace of Denier/Coins)

Second row - 9 b's, 2 c, 9 S's and 2 d's = Chokmah
etc.

You can also read down to connect each of the pips with a Major card, for example:

First column | 10 b's (10 Batons) under 0 (the fool)
Second column | 9 b's (9 Batons) and 1 C (Ace of Cups) under I (The Juggler)
Third column | 8 b's (8 Batons) and 2 C's (2 Cups) under II (The Popesse)
...
Twenty-second column | 10 d's (10 Deniers/Coins) under XXI (The World)

You can move the suits and majors round to suit your own preferred school of thought as to their ordering (I use the TdM, Alef with 0 The Fool).*

Kwaw

*Or if you use Thoth / GD (Waite and derivatives) use theirs; if Papus/Wirth or other of the French school the French; if one of the Gra spanish decks the Gra; if TdM or other old non-denominational deck then which ever you like (or your own).
 

Zephyros

I suppose any representation is flawed in that it is a representation. Your comments, kwaw, made me think of the rhizome, a theoretical construct in which all paths connect to all others.
 

kwaw

kwaw said:
To understand why each may indeed be in their own way correct it is best to resort to an older model of the 10 sefirah and 22 paths (and one which is described in the SY itself). Imagine 10 concentric circles with 22 lines radiating from the center.* Modeled this way you will see that each line intersects with each circle (i.e., each and every letter/path is connected to each and every sefirah).

These 220 (22x10) intersections plus the center point are known as the '221 gates' (231 gates in some SY manuscripts, based on pairing the 22 letters with each other rather than the intersections of paths and circles - n(n-1)/2 where n is 22 = 231).
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Sefer Yesira #18
The twenty-two letters are their foundation. It is fixed on the Hook, on a wheel with two hundred and twenty-one gates. The wheel rotates backwards and forwards. And this is the sign: if for good, above pleasure, and if for evil, below pain. (The short recension. Bibliotecha Palatina. 1286)

The twenty-two letters are the foundation. They are fixed on a wheel with two hundred and twenty-one gates. The wheel rotates backwards and forwards. And this is the sign of the matter: if for good, above pleasure, and if for evil, below pain. (Long recension. Vatican Library. Tenth century.)

The twenty-two letters. They are fixed on a wheel. The wheel rotates backwards and forwards. A sign for the matter: if in good, above pleasure, and if in evil, below pain. (The Saadyan recension. Geniza Scoll, 10th century, Cambridge University Library.

Sefer Yesira. Peter Hayman. p.98


SY 2:4
Twenty-two Foundation Letters:
He placed them in a circle
like a wall with 231 Gates.
The circle oscillates back and forth.
A sign for this is:
There is nothing in good higher than Delight (ONeG)
There is nothing in evil lower than Plague (NeGA)
(Gra version, 18th century. Kaplan translation.)

For those without Kaplan, there is a picture here:
http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/231Gates.php
 

Zephyros

ravenest said:
Heres an interesting book;
'Foucault's Pendulum' by Umberto Eco.
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As a semotician, Eco's theoretical works can be invaluable when seen through an esoteric lens.
 

GnosticTarotCards

This is not the kind of introduction I wanted to make to this group. Its somewhat sad and disconcerting that there is such rigidity in consideration of different views to Tarot / TOL Attributions. It does seem like the ol traditional view popularized wins. Congratultions! I think to keep persuing this sort of "ping pong" conversation is detrimental to any kind of spiritual foundation one would build, I humbly and gracefully bow out.

This conversation is too much for my little brain to handle. :) I need some more time and study to be able to know all that is being said, especially because I understand it one way and it is being highly scrutinized and taken out of context of the whole. That is something which is not pleasant , and i'd rather just spend my energies elsewhere, like my YouTube channel creating helpful videos for those interested in learning.

It is a great thread though! Lots of differing viewpoints to follow when considering such things.

Tim.
 

kwaw

GnosticTarotCards said:
...Its somewhat sad and disconcerting that there is such rigidity in consideration of different views to Tarot / TOL Attributions. It does seem like the ol traditional view popularized wins...
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I don't think there is rigidity (excepting in your exaltation of your own preferred system over the 'blatantly inaccurate' GD'esque). To use GD with GD derivatives (e.g.,Waite/Crowley), the French with French (Papus/Wirth), Gra with Spanish (El Gran) or whichever you prefer with TdM or other old non-denominational decks can hardly be called a 'rigid' position... and members have been happy to discuss and expressed a willingness to explore Christine's attributions over in the THL thread (in which Christine herself has said are made unobtrusive so people can feel free to use their own).

This way is right and that wrong has rarely proved a particularly fruitful approach with members of this forum, nor claims to unverifiable authority (both of which by nature are likely to provoke reasonable challenge to prove yourself), let alone requirements to learn without asking questions. If you can talk about your system with resorting to such you might get a more comfortable and engaging response - concentrate on the virtues/benefits or your system, not the errors of others.

(For my part, I'll keep out of it and let you promulgate to your heart's content. It would be a shame to see such an interesting new member shuffle off in a huff.)
 

Zephyros

kwaw said:
If you can talk about your system with resorting to such you might get a more comfortable and engaging response.
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Not to mention win people over to your side, as per Aesop's fable of the Sun and the Wind. :)
In any case I hope you reconsider your decision to bid adieu, as I have found your posts fascinating and enlightening once divorced from excess baggage. Remember that in adhering to one's truth one may be asking others to follow it blindly, something you yourself did not do, as evidenced by your experiences.

Probably GD drivel, but I can only offer you the maxim of DWTW.
 
Golden Dawn Tree vs. Crowley's? Force and Form on the Tree