What else?!

Aeon418

moderndayruth said:
Haha, why do you consider yourself biased?

I've been too close to the subject for too long. If someone relatively new to Crowley asked me for a biograpy recommendation I would find it very difficult to recommend one of the more negative books.

One reason is that the more negative books seem to go hand-in-hand with shoddy, half assed reasearch. If I'm responsible for introducing someone to Crowley, I would prefer it to be a reasonably level and factually accurate introduction. Frankly I would be distraught if I soured someone's initial exposure to Crowley or Thelema.

Now don't get me wrong. I can fully understand how that might sound a bit nanny-ish. I have no objection to anyone reading the negative biographies. (I've read nearly all of them myself.) If anyone were determined to start their Crowley adventure with one of them I would reluctantly say good luck, but caveat emptor. I just think it's better to tackle them with a firm foundation already laid. That way you can spot instances of authors using negative spin, axe-grinding, and distortion of the facts.

I know that Gregory likes the Symonds bio. And she has every right to.

But in all honesty it would gall me to recommed that one as an introduction to Crowley. To me John Symonds biography reads like a little man passing judgement on great man. The whole book exudes jealousy and contempt. Even Frieda Harris in a letter (to either Yorke or Germer?) said that she felt betrayed by him.

gregory

This was why I felt I should say what I meant ! I didn't find it biased - then again, I am reading it NOW - I can see that Frieda would have felt awful at that time. I know enough from other sources to know where the pinch of salt is needed. Which is what Aeon is sort of saying - you need to know something before reading the bad stuff. Perdurabo is better.

The same applies to the nastier side of Beethoven and also Mozart. But we can still appreciate the wonder of their creations and not like them a whole lot as people.

And I do think Crowley was great. We've learned one hell of a lot from him. Even if he did have some nasty habits.

Aeon - you didn't answer MDR's more important question of differentiation - and you would do it far better than I could:

moderndayruth

Aeon418 said:
I've been too close to the subject for too long. If someone relatively new to Crowley asked me for a biograpy recommendation I would find it very difficult to recommend one of the more negative books.

One reason is that the more negative books seem to go hand-in-hand with shoddy, half assed reasearch. If I'm responsible for introducing someone to Crowley, I would prefer it to be a reasonably level and factually accurate introduction. Frankly I would be distraught if I soured someone's initial exposure to Crowley or Thelema.

Oh, please, i don't need negative books. I like well written stuff, i can't read somehting ona level of a tabloid.
Btw, i did a reading (with Thoth of course) on "what kind of person was A. Crowley", will posted in YR subforum - you'll be surprised... or maybe not.
Hear this:"Aleister Crowley may seem, to the uninitiated, like an unmitigated egomaniac, a charlatan, a mad man, or worse. It can be argued, even by occultists, that this was indeed the case. However as occultist, Crowley remains unparalleled. How many contemporary practitioners can actually claim to have manifested a lasting change on the world. After all, changing the world around you is what magic is all about, and Aleister Crowley did it better than anyone. To say that Crowley was ahead of his time would be an understatement. Aside from the glamour of his "wickedness" which will always have a certain appeal, his greatest gift was perhaps his ability to reshape the theory of magic from a modern psychological standpoint, refashioning it into a tool for the New Aeon, a contribution that has yet to be matched or exceeded. "
(from http://www.popsubculture.com/pop/bio_project/aleister_crowley.html )
It seems quite an unbiased opinion, no?
What do you think of the site?

Btw, please, don't forget to explain me the difference between the two expressions, ok?

Aeon418

moderndayruth said:
Can you help me to understand the difference, please?

I will try my best.

The world "wilt" in Do what thou wilt actually refers to something called the Will. The natural question is, what is the Will? The Will is almost identical to what a lot of people call the Will of God. But of course we've hit a bit of a snag here already because different religions and philosophies define God in different ways.

Personally my definition of God has nothing in common with the vindictive and angry sky father found in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition. To me God is the Universe, cosmic/natural law, the Great All, the universal order, the way things are, Mystery of Mystery. On top of that I'm a little part of this Great All, and so are you.

But here we've hit another snag. My conscious perception of existence leads me to believe that I am a separate enity that is not connected to the Great All. There is I and everything else that is not I outside of me. This "illusory" perception of existence is a necessary and self-willed "Fall from Eden" that allows the Great All to experience itself from a unique and individual point of view.

Unfortunately this state of affairs tends to leave the individual points of consciousness feeling disconnected from the Divine Will. But within each individual there is a part that is still fully aware of it's connection to the Great All. This is the Will. Often in the Thoth forums you will see it anthropromorphised as something called the Holy Guardian Angel. The central task of a follower of Crowley's philosophy (Thelema) is to progressively get in touch with the Angel and manifest the Will, which is our purpose in life. In older traditions you conformed yourself to the Will of God by following commandments and written rules. But now there's just one. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I hope from that rather poor description you can see the difference between Will and petty wants, desires, and whims.

Aeon418

gregory said:
Aeon - you didn't answer MDR's more important question of differentiation - and you would do it far better than I could:

I've done it.

It took me a while because I'm terrible at expressing myself through the written word. Sometimes I really do envy people like, Scion, who have natural talent when it comes to writting. Me, I've got an inner secretary from hell. :laugh:

moderndayruth

Aeon418 said:
I will try my best.

The world "wilt" in Do what thou wilt actually refers to something called the Will. The natural question is, what is the Will? The Will is almost identical to what a lot of people call the Will of God. But of course we've hit a bit of a snag here already because different religions and philosophies define God in different ways.

Personally my definition of God has nothing in common with the vindictive and angry sky father found in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition. To me God is the Universe, cosmic/natural law, the Great All, the universal order, the way things are, Mystery of Mystery. On top of that I'm a little part of this Great All, and so are you.

But here we've hit another snag. My conscious perception of existence leads me to believe that I am a separate enity that is not connected to the Great All. There is I and everything else that is not I outside of me. This "illusory" perception of existence is a necessary and self-willed "Fall from Eden" that allows the Great All to experience itself from a unique and individual point of view.

Unfortunately this state of affairs tends to leave the individual points of consciousness feeling disconnected from the Divine Will. But within each individual there is a part that is still fully aware of it's connection to the Great All. This is the Will. Often in the Thoth forums you will see it anthropromorphised as something called the Holy Guardian Angel. The central task of a follower of Crowley's philosophy (Thelema) is to progressively get in touch with the Angel and manifest the Will, which is our purpose in life. In older traditions you conformed yourself to the Will of God by following commandments and written rules. But now there's just one. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I hope from that rather poor description you can see the difference between Will and petty wants, desires, and whims.

You are genius!

Yes - and i know the concept from the Jewish Kabbalah, and it has nothing to do with one's arbitrary and ephemeral wants!
Thank you so much for this! Thank you!
Speak about "lost in translation"....

moderndayruth

gregory said:
Aeon - you didn't answer MDR's more important question of differentiation - and you would do it far better than I could:

Thank you, Greg! :heart:

Le Fanu

As Aeon knows, I finished Sutin's Do What Thou Wilt last week and am now about a third of the way into Perdurabo. Both superb reads (though Sutin is a little dry at times). Neither of them sensationalists.

To keep this on topic, I have felt hugely energised in my appreciation of the Thoth deck by reading the biographies and getting a sense of the man who - at the end of his life - was the driving impetus to create it. Neither of these books dwell on dubious stories or rumour. Less credible stories (like that woman who said he offered her a goat's turd on a plate) get given short shrift.

So you ask, what else? There's his incredible life to reflect on!

Living as we want to live without excessive social niceties does not have to mean going round punching each other, it's not that. I was thinking more about how he pushed for what he believed in and didn't let anything stand in his way. He was lucky to find people - like Victor Neuburg and Mary Desti - who could just drop everything and live as intensely as he did (even though they couldn't always keep up with him). But he wasn't the sort that would say "yes" when he meant "no".

It's just that most of us have rather mundane lives and I envy him some of the drama and him being so loyal to himself.

And the more I read about his passion and formidable intellect, the more it makes me reflect on how great the Thoth truly is.

Aeon418

Hi, Le Fanu. Thanks for your thoughts.

I realise you still haven't finished Perdurabo, but if you had to choose between that and Sutin which would it be?

moderndayruth

Here is the reading i did: http://www.tarotforum.net/newthread.php?do=postthread&f=17