Where does "True Will" come from?

Karrma said:

.......Could another term for true will be internal will? If I really look deep inside me, trying to bypass all the external information and noise? And this internal will then could change, as the environment around me changes?

Click to expand...

That's sort of the way I see it. True Will comes from the inner Self, which is buried under a ton of superficial personæ and other garbage accumulated from years of training and conditioning to become a functioning 'adult'. It may take some digging (or an alchemical transformation) to get to the bedrock of Self.

LRichard said:

That's sort of the way I see it. True Will comes from the inner Self, which is buried under a ton of superficial personæ and other garbage accumulated from years of training and conditioning to become a functioning 'adult'. It may take some digging (or an alchemical transformation) to get to the bedrock of Self.

Click to expand...

Not that I'm attacking, but isn't that the sort of circuitous answer generally given? I mean, it doesn't matter what you call it, whether Inner, True, etc., you're talking about a (sorry) "true" you, that is, according to the literature, independent from what you normally perceive as your normal conscious ego. Where did that Self come from? How is it a Self? Did it come from the old bearded man in the sky? In Magick Without Tears, Crowley gives the example of the lady who chose true love over social prominence. Well and good, but why?

closrapexa said:

Not that I'm attacking, but isn't that the sort of circuitous answer generally given? I mean, it doesn't matter what you call it, whether Inner, True, etc., you're talking about a (sorry) "true" you, that is, according to the literature, independent from what you normally perceive as your normal conscious ego. Where did that Self come from? How is it a Self? Did it come from the old bearded man in the sky? In Magick Without Tears, Crowley gives the example of the lady who chose true love over social prominence. Well and good, but why?

Click to expand...

Not meaning to be circuitous, but isn't there a gut feeling that there must be something more substantial about You than the veneer of civilization or a vague sense of 'I-ness'?

I wonder whether the approach here is too rational. Like falling asleep, some things just happen, or ARE. For example, everyone has a rudimentary feeling about what is good and what is bad. We got a conscience, like we got brains. The one we cannot rationalize, the other we can. Just a matter of heart chakra. You can ponder about its functioning, but it is improper to rationalize it away towards nihilism.

Karrma said:

There seems to be an internal contradiction to me if True Will does not have the ability to change or develop.

Click to expand...

This is ultimately my own problem with the premise; every explanation I can come up with comes in the end to Fate. Even if I propose a theory that there is a "spiritual" DNA, mixed and created by our parents by the "magickal act" of conception, that still leaves me with a somewhat unsatisfying explanation.

LRichard said:

Not meaning to be circuitous, but isn't there a gut feeling that there must be something more substantial about You than the veneer of civilization or a vague sense of 'I-ness'?

Click to expand...

I completely concede to that point. However, that still leaves our damsel who chose true love reeling over the reason why she was "chosen" to fulfill her orbit as a socialite, and not something else. What is it about her that makes her Higher Self be inclined to that? Let's say Keter is the prime potentiality, and all individual stars are the unity's way of experiencing all that can be experienced, hands and legs to a brain, if you will. There's still that nagging feeling that True Will is another word for fate, if I understood Karma's post. In addition, that idea, without the missing piece, somehow smacks of old Aeon guilt, that the individual is somehow flawed if he does not conform to some monolithic deity, even if that monolith is his own Higher Self. The idea of individual deity does not untangle the question.

yogiman said:

I wonder whether the approach here is too rational. Like falling asleep, some things just happen, or ARE. For example, everyone has a rudimentary feeling about what is good and what is bad. We got a conscience, like we got brains. The one we cannot rationalize, the other we can. Just a matter of heart chakra. You can ponder about its functioning, but it is improper to rationalize it away towards nihilism.

Click to expand...

On the one hand I could agree with you, some things that are experienced cannot be conveyed in words. However, such a fundamental precept must have been discussed somewhere. The entire idea that all men are deities is important for understanding these subjects, but if that deity was forced upon you... well, there's Karma's fate again.

closrapexa said:

There's still that nagging feeling that True Will is another word for fate,

Click to expand...

Mercury (the Magus, true will) is both the transformer, and the one transformed in the process.

I think there will be more freedom, according to the extent to which the mind has freed itself from identification with the body (buddhism), or the extent to which spirit is above the 4 elements.

closrapexa said:

The entire idea that all men are deities is important for understanding these subjects, but if that deity was forced upon you... well, there's Karma's fate again.

Click to expand...

I think what is important is humility. The intellectual pedestal is a trap. There should be a balance between heart and mind in approaching essential questions.

The meaning of 'fate' is sooo problematic! Fate cannot be defined or detected. It is invisible, intangible, makes no sound, and has no scent (like the Invisible Gardener in the parable). Therefore, what is the pragmatic difference between fate, and non-fate? It is an illusion due to linear thinking. Reality is not linear. It can only be mapped onto a multidimensional continuum of space and time, where the interactions between past, present, and future cannot be described by a single linear string of binary digits. In its proper, realistic context, fate has no meaning whatsoever.

I agree. Skimmed through Duty and had an epiphany, of sorts. Perhaps I've been seeing this wrongly, in looking for the answer as a "thing," or process. Perhaps True Will can best be defined as what it isn't. It is not acting through fear, or obligation, or compulsion, or guilt, or shame, or any of the things that would degrade and besmirch the inherent deity within. Take all that away, through all sorts of initiatory processes, as all that is merely extra baggage, and by Occam's Razor you are left with the essence. That, is the Higher Self.

Ultimately... Love is the Law, Love Under Will.

Obcsure terminology warning

Karrma said:

So on one hand here, is one question WILL versus FATE.
And on the other, is "true" will a static thing decided prior to birth, or can it change? For me, there is a static feeling to fate, no matter what we do, it was pre-determined. Will on the other hand, needs action, mental or physical or spiritual, and due to that, some sort of growth or change, growing in one area, and killing off or losing another, as we proceed through this life. There seems to be an internal contradiction to me if True Will does not have the ability to change or develop.

Could another term for true will be internal will? If I really look deep inside me, trying to bypass all the external information and noise? And this internal will then could change, as the environment around me changes?

Click to expand...

I see it this way; our True Will does not extend beyond the radius of our 'own true magick circle'.

We may not be aware (ever .. or we may come to that awareness) of the extent of the circumference . We may perceive our boundary (and perhaps restrict ourselves by doing that) but that doesn't mean that our boundary IS restricted by that... we can move learn and develop. But I don't think we can go beyond the boundary set by our True Will and natural form. But the boundary just might be much larger than we can perceive at present.

Also its tricky and works on many levels ... I go to work to a mundane job ... is that my True Will if it gives me money to help accomplish my Great Work ?

I have a story going in spirituality forum > Gift thread (which I really should get back too _ I have fans ), that MAY reveal ( eventually) some dynamics at work in one finding one's True Will and the 'forces of Karma' that define it ... what we 'bring with us' , the situations we find ourselves in ... what evolves over time ... and people we run into ... as the Sufi's say: Right person, right place, right time.

closrapexa said:

Always up for a game! It'll save me from my morbid thoughts of sex and Death I'm forcing myself to think about right now.

Click to expand...

I ask questions and you answer them (it doesn't matter what the answers are ... they don't have to be accurate or about your feelings) ... we do it here or split?

(PS. making it a game keeps it light and answers, not having to be accurate, defray side issues and attacks - hopefully.)